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GentlerApproach
3 Posts |
 Posted - 07/28/2013 : 10:10:13
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quote:
Originally posted by julypanda
How dare you people say what you have about Hoxsey and her decision to use alternative treatment. Have you ever wondered to yourself why she chose alternative rather than conventional? Before you bag out other people and their choices, make sure you have ALL the information.
Do you not think that chemotherapy is just as deadly and debilitating as the black salve treatment. I don't see too many forums/photos of the side effects of chemo.
Freedom of speech - isn't that what we are allowed to have. Sure, you can disagree with what is posted on here, but to take personal swipes at such vulnerable people is just low and uncalled for.
I myself chose alternative therapy for my skin cancer - why?? Because as the doctor was taking a biopsy, he was already trying to line his pockets suggesting thousands of dollars of treatment for my large pores and red skin, which had absolutely nothing to do with the skin cancer.
So in conclusion, sure, have your say, but don't get personal. I was just disgusted reading YOUR forum. Was it helpful in anyway - absolutely NOT !!!
Look, I hope you read this message because it comes from a place of good intention.
The information that is being given in this thread is dangerous and harmful.
I know that your gut reaction to that statement is to counter with the idea that chemotherapy and other medical procedures can be dangerous and harmful but that doesn't really apply to this situation. The woman in this thread, the woman who lost a large portion of her nose, would not have needed chemotherapy or any highly invasive procedures. She could have had her BCC removed in a short, out-patient procedure which would have done less damage than the salve she used. FAR less damage.
This is a fact you cannot dispute. The scar on her upper lip shows that she had such a procedure before and it's clear to anyone that the "damage" done there is dramatically less than what the salve did to her. In fact, her surgery scar is so minimal that she had to provide a close-up of it for anyone to even notice it.
If cost is the concern here, and you mention that in your post, then I'm not sure what to say to that since I can't speak from experience. I live in a country where medical costs are paid for by the government (as they should be, in my opinion). I understand that some people may not have this luxury and it's tough to afford insurance or procedures — but I have to wonder if Hoxsey's re-constructive surgery and numerous doctor visits (ultimately required because of the salve) cost more than a simple BCC removal at her dermatologist's office.
I'm betting it cost far more.
This forum's suggestion that Hoxsey should use this salve, and then encouraging her to continue with further treatments, as well as ingestion of chemically dangerous substances, then supporting her while she fasts at a time when her body is in crisis, is quite shocking for outsiders to read. Not simply because you're suggesting the use of what you call "alternative medicine" but because you're providing advice beyond that brand of "healing" that goes against established scientific fact and, I have to say, common sense.
Your intentions may be good but advice on this forum is dangerous.
Look at this poor woman's face! How many more cases of this do you need to see before you all accept that fact that this sort of treatment is not the best way to deal with these types of medical conditions - or any condition for that matter. The substance your are promoting is labelled as a dangerous material and medical boards and the FDA advise against it's use (I imagine you will rebut with a rant about the FDA being some horrible entity). Or how about the fact that the person Hoxsey was in contact with, and who advised her to ingest the salve is a convicted felon who served time in jail for the weapons possession, counterfeiting, and defrauding customers and a violation of federal health laws with the sale of items that severely and permanently disfigured other people.
That's not someone she should be getting medical advice from, don't you think?
I'm sure you think I'm just some arrogant jerk who doesn't get what this forum is all about, and that's not the case at all. I know you're trying to help. I'm only here to implore you to look at what information you're all providing and ask yourselves if it's really effective and safe.
My answer would be that it isn't.
This thread is full of contradictory information and hypocritical beliefs where "western medicine and alternative medicine" are concerned. I think you should all re-evaluate your use of these products - or at the very least your espousal of their use. You may have the right to use them yourself; but you certainly don't have enough knowledge or understanding of their side-effects, or medicine in general to be giving advice to others for how or when they should be used.
To any person who is reading this, as a curious onlooker or someone considering these "treatments"...
PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS, DO NOT USE THESE SALVES. THEY ARE NOT SAFE. THEY ARE NOT HEALTHY. LOOK AT THE PICTURES HERE. LOOK AT PICTURES ELSEWHERE ON THE NET. THE DAMAGE THAT CAN OCCUR IS SEVERE AND PERMANENT.
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RUKiddingMe
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2013 : 10:23:48
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quote:
Originally posted by anivoc
Hey Julypanda....Clearly RUKidding me is much wiser and better informed than the rest of here....or not so much..
You mentioned freedom of speech and to that effect RUK has a right to spout off as long as he/she doesn't cross the line...
He/She is pushing it but with mass assumptions and conclusions based upon them...
Ignorance is bliss.....Dr. Mohs who set the gold standard in skin cancer surgery used bloodroot paste so it must be truly INSANE to use..
Too many real people sharing here including myself have used bloodroot paste, petty spurge and a litany of other alternative approaches with equal to or better results than traditional medical approaches.
In regards to Kitty..
ductal breast cancer is serious as noted... If it was my wife I'd probaby encourage going the surgical route only because it is so serious and we don't have any data or experience on someone who beat it with bloodroot or other alternative approach...
I suggested do your own due diligence but for my loved ones that is the route I would recommend...
You're right! I go to the doctor when I need medical advice or medical procedures. I would also never put **** on my face that would burn off my nose.
You should read all the comments in the Reddit link a few posts up from my original post. |
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RUKiddingMe
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2013 : 10:36:28
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quote:
Originally posted by GentlerApproach
quote:
Originally posted by julypanda
How dare you people say what you have about Hoxsey and her decision to use alternative treatment. Have you ever wondered to yourself why she chose alternative rather than conventional? Before you bag out other people and their choices, make sure you have ALL the information.
Do you not think that chemotherapy is just as deadly and debilitating as the black salve treatment. I don't see too many forums/photos of the side effects of chemo.
Freedom of speech - isn't that what we are allowed to have. Sure, you can disagree with what is posted on here, but to take personal swipes at such vulnerable people is just low and uncalled for.
I myself chose alternative therapy for my skin cancer - why?? Because as the doctor was taking a biopsy, he was already trying to line his pockets suggesting thousands of dollars of treatment for my large pores and red skin, which had absolutely nothing to do with the skin cancer.
So in conclusion, sure, have your say, but don't get personal. I was just disgusted reading YOUR forum. Was it helpful in anyway - absolutely NOT !!!
Look, I hope you read this message because it comes from a place of good intention.
The information that is being given in this thread is dangerous and harmful.
I know that your gut reaction to that statement is to counter with the idea that chemotherapy and other medical procedures can be dangerous and harmful but that doesn't really apply to this situation. The woman in this thread, the woman who lost a large portion of her nose, would not have needed chemotherapy or any highly invasive procedures. She could have had her BCC removed in a short, out-patient procedure which would have done less damage than the salve she used. FAR less damage.
This is a fact you cannot dispute. The scar on her upper lip shows that she had such a procedure before and it's clear to anyone that the "damage" done there is dramatically less than what the salve did to her. In fact, her surgery scar is so minimal that she had to provide a close-up of it for anyone to even notice it.
If cost is the concern here, and you mention that in your post, then I'm not sure what to say to that since I can't speak from experience. I live in a country where medical costs are paid for by the government (as they should be, in my opinion). I understand that some people may not have this luxury and it's tough to afford insurance or procedures — but I have to wonder if Hoxsey's re-constructive surgery and numerous doctor visits (ultimately required because of the salve) cost more than a simple BCC removal at her dermatologist's office.
I'm betting it cost far more.
This forum's suggestion that Hoxsey should use this salve, and then encouraging her to continue with further treatments, as well as ingestion of chemically dangerous substances, then supporting her while she fasts at a time when her body is in crisis, is quite shocking for outsiders to read. Not simply because you're suggesting the use of what you call "alternative medicine" but because you're providing advice beyond that brand of "healing" that goes against established scientific fact and, I have to say, common sense.
Your intentions may be good but advice on this forum is dangerous.
Look at this poor woman's face! How many more cases of this do you need to see before you all accept that fact that this sort of treatment is not the best way to deal with these types of medical conditions - or any condition for that matter. The substance your are promoting is labelled as a dangerous material and medical boards and the FDA advise against it's use (I imagine you will rebut with a rant about the FDA being some horrible entity). Or how about the fact that the person Hoxsey was in contact with, and who advised her to ingest the salve is a convicted felon who served time in jail for the weapons possession, counterfeiting, and defrauding customers and a violation of federal health laws with the sale of items that severely and permanently disfigured other people.
That's not someone she should be getting medical advice from, don't you think?
I'm sure you think I'm just some arrogant jerk who doesn't get what this forum is all about, and that's not the case at all. I know you're trying to help. I'm only here to implore you to look at what information you're all providing and ask yourselves if it's really effective and safe.
My answer would be that it isn't.
This thread is full of contradictory information and hypocritical beliefs where "western medicine and alternative medicine" are concerned. I think you should all re-evaluate your use of these products - or at the very least your espousal of their use. You may have the right to use them yourself; but you certainly don't have enough knowledge or understanding of their side-effects, or medicine in general to be giving advice to others for how or when they should be used.
To any person who is reading this, as a curious onlooker or someone considering these "treatments"...
PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS, DO NOT USE THESE SALVES. THEY ARE NOT SAFE. THEY ARE NOT HEALTHY. LOOK AT THE PICTURES HERE. LOOK AT PICTURES ELSEWHERE ON THE NET. THE DAMAGE THAT CAN OCCUR IS SEVERE AND PERMANENT.
I hope people coming here considering using Black Salve will reconsider.
Still not convinced? Take another look at the pictures. |
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BlondeAmbition3
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2013 : 10:58:59
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quote:
Originally posted by RUKiddingMe
quote:
Originally posted by GentlerApproach
quote:
Originally posted by julypanda
How dare you people say what you have about Hoxsey and her decision to use alternative treatment. Have you ever wondered to yourself why she chose alternative rather than conventional? Before you bag out other people and their choices, make sure you have ALL the information.
Do you not think that chemotherapy is just as deadly and debilitating as the black salve treatment. I don't see too many forums/photos of the side effects of chemo.
Freedom of speech - isn't that what we are allowed to have. Sure, you can disagree with what is posted on here, but to take personal swipes at such vulnerable people is just low and uncalled for.
I myself chose alternative therapy for my skin cancer - why?? Because as the doctor was taking a biopsy, he was already trying to line his pockets suggesting thousands of dollars of treatment for my large pores and red skin, which had absolutely nothing to do with the skin cancer.
So in conclusion, sure, have your say, but don't get personal. I was just disgusted reading YOUR forum. Was it helpful in anyway - absolutely NOT !!!
Look, I hope you read this message because it comes from a place of good intention.
The information that is being given in this thread is dangerous and harmful.
I know that your gut reaction to that statement is to counter with the idea that chemotherapy and other medical procedures can be dangerous and harmful but that doesn't really apply to this situation. The woman in this thread, the woman who lost a large portion of her nose, would not have needed chemotherapy or any highly invasive procedures. She could have had her BCC removed in a short, out-patient procedure which would have done less damage than the salve she used. FAR less damage.
This is a fact you cannot dispute. The scar on her upper lip shows that she had such a procedure before and it's clear to anyone that the "damage" done there is dramatically less than what the salve did to her. In fact, her surgery scar is so minimal that she had to provide a close-up of it for anyone to even notice it.
If cost is the concern here, and you mention that in your post, then I'm not sure what to say to that since I can't speak from experience. I live in a country where medical costs are paid for by the government (as they should be, in my opinion). I understand that some people may not have this luxury and it's tough to afford insurance or procedures — but I have to wonder if Hoxsey's re-constructive surgery and numerous doctor visits (ultimately required because of the salve) cost more than a simple BCC removal at her dermatologist's office.
I'm betting it cost far more.
This forum's suggestion that Hoxsey should use this salve, and then encouraging her to continue with further treatments, as well as ingestion of chemically dangerous substances, then supporting her while she fasts at a time when her body is in crisis, is quite shocking for outsiders to read. Not simply because you're suggesting the use of what you call "alternative medicine" but because you're providing advice beyond that brand of "healing" that goes against established scientific fact and, I have to say, common sense.
Your intentions may be good but advice on this forum is dangerous.
Look at this poor woman's face! How many more cases of this do you need to see before you all accept that fact that this sort of treatment is not the best way to deal with these types of medical conditions - or any condition for that matter. The substance your are promoting is labelled as a dangerous material and medical boards and the FDA advise against it's use (I imagine you will rebut with a rant about the FDA being some horrible entity). Or how about the fact that the person Hoxsey was in contact with, and who advised her to ingest the salve is a convicted felon who served time in jail for the weapons possession, counterfeiting, and defrauding customers and a violation of federal health laws with the sale of items that severely and permanently disfigured other people.
That's not someone she should be getting medical advice from, don't you think?
I'm sure you think I'm just some arrogant jerk who doesn't get what this forum is all about, and that's not the case at all. I know you're trying to help. I'm only here to implore you to look at what information you're all providing and ask yourselves if it's really effective and safe.
My answer would be that it isn't.
This thread is full of contradictory information and hypocritical beliefs where "western medicine and alternative medicine" are concerned. I think you should all re-evaluate your use of these products - or at the very least your espousal of their use. You may have the right to use them yourself; but you certainly don't have enough knowledge or understanding of their side-effects, or medicine in general to be giving advice to others for how or when they should be used.
To any person who is reading this, as a curious onlooker or someone considering these "treatments"...
PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS, DO NOT USE THESE SALVES. THEY ARE NOT SAFE. THEY ARE NOT HEALTHY. LOOK AT THE PICTURES HERE. LOOK AT PICTURES ELSEWHERE ON THE NET. THE DAMAGE THAT CAN OCCUR IS SEVERE AND PERMANENT.
I hope people coming here considering using Black Salve will reconsider.
Still not convinced? Take another look at the pictures.
This Forum isn't for everyone. Bloodroot isn't for everyone. It's for those of us who have NO OTHER HOPE and/or options. It does no harm when used correctly and unlike the current "Medical Model' it allows the body to heal naturally. I recommend that all YOU PEOPLE in opposition of Bloodroot do what you feel you need to do and WE (alternative People) will do what we need to do..... continue to help others who decide to go against the medical Model and use natural Products to help rid our bodies of Cancer and other diseases. No matter how hard we try, sometimes the CANCER is just going to have already invaded and destroyed so much tissue that regardless of the Modality used, disfigurement and or irrevocable damage is bound to happen. We're not invading and disrupting your Forums, so do us the courtesy of not invading and disrupting ours. I'm alive because of Bloodroot... and I will never allow people like you to prevent me from sharing that fact, that truth, that Salvation with others. |
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shazbot
4 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2013 : 11:05:53
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| Congratulations to RUKiddingMe for posting the first sane message on the TopicalInfo boards. And what do you win....gobs of scorn and derision. You are pissing into the wind RUK. The people that populate forums of this nature all have two things in common. They are megalomaniacs possessing a never ending supply of condescension. I say to all who arrive at this board, and ones like it, looking for advice on treating skin cancer with corrosive salves. Take the renowned Dr. Bonder and Dr. Anivoc's advice. That way we can spot the insane among us by their highly disfigured faces. |
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Chill
17 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2013 : 11:45:13
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Hi. As a frequenter of Reddit I'd like to apologise for the tone of recent messages from other Reddit users. We're a mixed bunch, and some are young kids who don't really know how to interact with people at all. I mean, at all. Utterly useless, so the end up shouting at everything. People. Coffee cups.
But the nice thing about Reddit is theirs always corrective voices, like GentlerApproach, right there among the noise to balance things out.
Mainly, we believe rational thinking protects a person from harm. It allows you to weigh options without being blinded by fear, suspicion and anxiety. It allows you to choose the mainstream option when it makes the most sense to your health, and avoid unnecessary procedures in cases when a doctor is clearly trying to dupe you. It's protection against harm.
Don't be too proud to admit errors. It's not stupidity that prevents rational thought. |
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Chill
17 Posts |
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GentlerApproach
3 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2013 : 12:51:48
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quote:
Originally posted by julypanda
This Forum isn't for everyone. Bloodroot isn't for everyone. It's for those of us who have NO OTHER HOPE and/or options. It does no harm when used correctly and unlike the current "Medical Model' it allows the body to heal naturally. I recommend that all YOU PEOPLE in opposition of Bloodroot do what you feel you need to do and WE (alternative People) will do what we need to do..... continue to help others who decide to go against the medical Model and use natural Products to help rid our bodies of Cancer and other diseases. No matter how hard we try, sometimes the CANCER is just going to have already invaded and destroyed so much tissue that regardless of the Modality used, disfigurement and or irrevocable damage is bound to happen. We're not invading and disrupting your Forums, so do us the courtesy of not invading and disrupting ours. I'm alive because of Bloodroot... and I will never allow people like you to prevent me from sharing that fact, that truth, that Salvation with others.
Look, I have to address some of your points here because they illustrate why us newcomers are so concerned. Stay with me here and listen to what I have to say, I'll lay this out clearly and concisely:
quote:
Bloodroot isn't for everyone. It's for those of us who have NO OTHER HOPE and/or options.
Hoxsey had other options. She said she had a BCC removed prior and it left minimal scarring. She could have had the BCC on her nose and forehead removed the same way. She chose not to, you all encouraged that choice. She DID have a choice.
quote:
It does no harm when used correctly
If it does no harm when used correctly, are you suggesting that Hoxsey used this incorrectly? Everyone on this forum cheered her on and kept reassuring her that what she did was right, that her body was healing and the salve was hunting down the cancer and removing it. So which is it? Was she using it right and it just scarred her and forced her into multiple, expensive surgeries, or was she using it incorrectly while Bonder et al were telling her she was doing the right thing?
quote:
It does no harm when used correctly and unlike the current "Medical Model' it allows the body to heal naturally.
So, when she was forced into taking Vicodin for the pain, and then had to have surgery to remove cancer that the salve missed, then had to have plastic surgery to have her nose and forehead reconstructed - that's what you call "allowing the body to heal naturally?" It would seem to me that your jab at the "current Medical Model" is unwarranted since the "current Medical Model" was ultimately the model that eased her pain and repaired the damage done by the current "Alternative Model" that this forum pushes.
quote:
I recommend that all YOU PEOPLE in opposition of Bloodroot do what you feel you need to do and WE (alternative People) will do what we need to do..... continue to help others who decide to go against the medical Model and use natural Products to help rid our bodies of Cancer and other diseases.
The problem that those of us in "opposition" to the use of these salves have, is that there are forums like this that provide reams and reams of harmful advice to people who are frightened, desperate, ignorant, or unaware of safer, more effective medical treatments. If you try to contest this point, I will happily go through posts on page one that are medically erroneous and offer nothing but misinformation and bad advice. In fact, the only good advice I think I saw on the first page of this thread was that Hoxsey go to see a doctor. Hindsight is 20/20, I suppose.
The substances you all seem to think are specifically targeting cancer are doing no such thing. It's a shotgun approach that causes catastrophic tissue damage and cell death to both healthy and cancerous cells. Again, the before and after photos say everything that needs to be said in this regard. A surgical procedure would have been a far safer, less expensive, and far less damaging alternative.
quote:
No matter how hard we try, sometimes the CANCER is just going to have already invaded and destroyed so much tissue that regardless of the Modality used, disfigurement and or irrevocable damage is bound to happen.
As I mentioned above, this post further illustrates the complete and utter lack of understanding of how these products work. The damage done to Hoxsey's face, and anyone else who had been disfigured by these products is not cause by cancer or the salve's imagined aggressive pursuit of cancer. The damage is done by the product itself. Read that again: The products you are using are destroying your tissues whether cancer is present or not. The damage done is not linked to the amount of cancer present, it's linked to the use and abuse of the salve itself.
quote:
We're not invading and disrupting your Forums, so do us the courtesy of not invading and disrupting ours.
People are here "disrupting" your forum because news of this poor woman's suffering got out and spread around the net. Of all the people who have seen this story, a tiny handful have come here out of concern, sadness, and even anger. Your forum is a tiny, tiny minority who feels these practices are safe, effective, and "natural." The reason your tiny minority is feeling the heat right now is because the overwhelming majority of people learning about this story find it abhorrent, disheartening, and dangerous.
I imagine that view may reinforce your community's belief that you're all onto something esoteric and that nobody else will understand it because we've all been brainwashed by the System, or something of the sort. I certainly hope that's not the case because quite frankly, it would be an absurd notion to harbour. People freak out when they hear and see this story because it's indicative of unhealthy modes of thought and unsafe practices, period.
quote:
I'm alive because of Bloodroot... and I will never allow people like you to prevent me from sharing that fact, that truth, that Salvation with others.
This is the most disturbing thing you've said thus far. I'm sure you think you're alive because of bloodroot but you could have been saved by a doctor's expertise just as easily, and probably far less traumatically.
This isn't about your experience, this is about Hoxsey and all the terrible misinformation and advice the poor woman has been given by people who don't understand the chemicals they're dealing with. YOU, specifically YOU, julypanda, may have the right to share your story; but you most certainly don't have the expertise or medical knowledge to offer advice on the application of a substance that literally ate away healthy tissue and disfigured another human being. You don't have the expertise to advise on the recovery required to deal with that trauma, nor do you have the expertise to espouse the use of such products to people you've never met and/or have no clue as to what their medical history is.
Go back and look at the pictures of the damage this salve did to Hoxsey. Go back and look. If you don't go back and look, ask yourself why you aren't.
People have come to this thread voicing their concern and anger because they're upset. They just saw and read about a woman who disfigured her face because she eschewed proper medical advice and assistance in favour of a group of people who have no certification, knowledge, or experience in the proper, safe, treatment of skin cancers.
And look where it got her:
- A disfigured forehead and nose.
- Medical expenses far beyond what a Mohs surgery would have cost her.
- Weeks of pain.
- Months of concern, fear, anxiety, and emotional suffering.
If you think that's better than the "current Medical Model," the medical model that can perform a removal of a BCC in an outpatient procedure with a ~99% success rate, then I'm afraid you're beyond all hope of having any sort of reasonable discussion with.
Again, to anyone considering this type of "salve treatment" - reconsider. It isn't safe, and there are better medical options out there. |
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BlondeAmbition3
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2013 : 13:20:25
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quote:
Originally posted by GentlerApproach
quote:
Originally posted by julypanda
This Forum isn't for everyone. Bloodroot isn't for everyone. It's for those of us who have NO OTHER HOPE and/or options. It does no harm when used correctly and unlike the current "Medical Model' it allows the body to heal naturally. I recommend that all YOU PEOPLE in opposition of Bloodroot do what you feel you need to do and WE (alternative People) will do what we need to do..... continue to help others who decide to go against the medical Model and use natural Products to help rid our bodies of Cancer and other diseases. No matter how hard we try, sometimes the CANCER is just going to have already invaded and destroyed so much tissue that regardless of the Modality used, disfigurement and or irrevocable damage is bound to happen. We're not invading and disrupting your Forums, so do us the courtesy of not invading and disrupting ours. I'm alive because of Bloodroot... and I will never allow people like you to prevent me from sharing that fact, that truth, that Salvation with others.
Look, I have to address some of your points here because they illustrate why us newcomers are so concerned. Stay with me here and listen to what I have to say, I'll lay this out clearly and concisely:
quote:
Bloodroot isn't for everyone. It's for those of us who have NO OTHER HOPE and/or options.
Hoxsey had other options. She said she had a BCC removed prior and it left minimal scarring. She could have had the BCC on her nose and forehead removed the same way. She chose not to, you all encouraged that choice. She DID have a choice.
quote:
It does no harm when used correctly
If it does no harm when used correctly, are you suggesting that Hoxsey used this incorrectly? Everyone on this forum cheered her on and kept reassuring her that what she did was right, that her body was healing and the salve was hunting down the cancer and removing it. So which is it? Was she using it right and it just scarred her and forced her into multiple, expensive surgeries, or was she using it incorrectly while Bonder et al were telling her she was doing the right thing?
quote:
It does no harm when used correctly and unlike the current "Medical Model' it allows the body to heal naturally.
So, when she was forced into taking Vicodin for the pain, and then had to have surgery to remove cancer that the salve missed, then had to have plastic surgery to have her nose and forehead reconstructed - that's what you call "allowing the body to heal naturally?" It would seem to me that your jab at the "current Medical Model" is unwarranted since the "current Medical Model" was ultimately the model that eased her pain and repaired the damage done by the current "Alternative Model" that this forum pushes.
quote:
I recommend that all YOU PEOPLE in opposition of Bloodroot do what you feel you need to do and WE (alternative People) will do what we need to do..... continue to help others who decide to go against the medical Model and use natural Products to help rid our bodies of Cancer and other diseases.
The problem that those of us in "opposition" to the use of these salves have, is that there are forums like this that provide reams and reams of harmful advice to people who are frightened, desperate, ignorant, or unaware of safer, more effective medical treatments. If you try to contest this point, I will happily go through posts on page one that are medically erroneous and offer nothing but misinformation and bad advice. In fact, the only good advice I think I saw on the first page of this thread was that Hoxsey go to see a doctor. Hindsight is 20/20, I suppose.
The substances you all seem to think are specifically targeting cancer are doing no such thing. It's a shotgun approach that causes catastrophic tissue damage and cell death to both healthy and cancerous cells. Again, the before and after photos say everything that needs to be said in this regard. A surgical procedure would have been a far safer, less expensive, and far less damaging alternative.
quote:
No matter how hard we try, sometimes the CANCER is just going to have already invaded and destroyed so much tissue that regardless of the Modality used, disfigurement and or irrevocable damage is bound to happen.
As I mentioned above, this post further illustrates the complete and utter lack of understanding of how these products work. The damage done to Hoxsey's face, and anyone else who had been disfigured by these products is not cause by cancer or the salve's imagined aggressive pursuit of cancer. The damage is done by the product itself. Read that again: The products you are using are destroying your tissues whether cancer is present or not. The damage done is not linked to the amount of cancer present, it's linked to the use and abuse of the salve itself.
quote:
We're not invading and disrupting your Forums, so do us the courtesy of not invading and disrupting ours.
People are here "disrupting" your forum because news of this poor woman's suffering got out and spread around the net. Of all the people who have seen this story, a tiny handful have come here out of concern, sadness, and even anger. Your forum is a tiny, tiny minority who feels these practices are safe, effective, and "natural." The reason your tiny minority is feeling the heat right now is because the overwhelming majority of people learning about this story find it abhorrent, disheartening, and dangerous.
I imagine that view may reinforce your community's belief that you're all onto something esoteric and that nobody else will understand it because we've all been brainwashed by the System, or something of the sort. I certainly hope that's not the case because quite frankly, it would be an absurd notion to harbour. People freak out when they hear and see this story because it's indicative of unhealthy modes of thought and unsafe practices, period.
quote:
I'm alive because of Bloodroot... and I will never allow people like you to prevent me from sharing that fact, that truth, that Salvation with others.
This is the most disturbing thing you've said thus far. I'm sure you think you're alive because of bloodroot but you could have been saved by a doctor's expertise just as easily, and probably far less traumatically.
This isn't about your experience, this is about Hoxsey and all the terrible misinformation and advice the poor woman has been given by people who don't understand the chemicals they're dealing with. YOU, specifically YOU, julypanda, may have the right to share your story; but you most certainly don't have the expertise or medical knowledge to offer advice on the application of a substance that literally ate away healthy tissue and disfigured another human being. You don't have the expertise to advise on the recovery required to deal with that trauma, nor do you have the expertise to espouse the use of such products to people you've never met and/or have no clue as to what their medical history is.
Go back and look at the pictures of the damage this salve did to Hoxsey. Go back and look. If you don't go back and look, ask yourself why you aren't.
People have come to this thread voicing their concern and anger because they're upset. They just saw and read about a woman who disfigured her face because she eschewed proper medical advice and assistance in favour of a group of people who have no certification, knowledge, or experience in the proper, safe, treatment of skin cancers.
And look where it got her:
- A disfigured forehead and nose.
- Medical expenses far beyond what a Mohs surgery would have cost her.
- Weeks of pain.
- Months of concern, fear, anxiety, and emotional suffering.
If you think that's better than the "current Medical Model," the medical model that can perform a removal of a BCC in an outpatient procedure with a ~99% success rate, then I'm afraid you're beyond all hope of having any sort of reasonable discussion with.
Again, to anyone considering this type of "salve treatment" - reconsider. It isn't safe, and there are better medical options out there.
You think your arguments are valid... they aren't. I don't advocate ANYONE to use Bloodroot... each person has to make a personal decision based on their own research and due diligence ...I didn't advocate that Hoxsey use it.... merely offered consolation and support 'after' the fact. No one encouraged or advocated I use it.. I used it because I found it to be the right thing for ME to do. You're making a LOT of 'assumptions' here also.... you're assuming Hoxsey didn't get all of the Cancer with the Bloodroot.... No one can say with 100 percent certainty whether she did or didn't.... the Doctors performed surgery reconstructive surgery that probably would have had to have been performed anyway because her Cancer had already destroyed so much tissue that her nose was not able to be saved no matter what methods used. It happens... I had a Friend with breast Cancer who chose the traditional Medical Model (Chemo & Radiation) and her breast still turned black and rotted off before she died.... The 'kind' Medical Model held no hope for her. I have dozens of dead Friends from Cancer who have been POISONED, disfigured and cut to pieces using the traditional Medical Model. I also know DOZENS who are alive & well using Bloodroot and other natural methods.... It's OUR choices.... and whether you care to believe it or not is YOUR biased choice. Every one of us who choose whatever paths to our wellness have to inform ourselves to ALL of the options available and then weigh the risks accordingly. Unfortunately, there are some unhappy endings. This IS about MY experience... it's about everyone's experiences.... and you can not say with any certainty whatsoever (nor can anyone else for that matter) that Hoxsey's outcome would have been 'better' if she'd have gone YOUR recommended route. You think the traditional Medical Model is the better option out there... many of us don't. You will NOT silence my voice with yours because I KNOW that you're wrong. Nature has everything we need for our health and healing and of that I am certain. Conventional Medicine, on the other hand, is only concerned with palliative therapies and 'sick care'... and it's probably WHY you're on this Forum.... because they're tired of losing millions to the people who are genuinely HEALED because of alternative therapies. I KNOW because I shouldn't be here right now.... if I had gone the traditional Medical Route I'd already have been buried years ago. Instead, I'm CURED... spending time I wouldn't otherwise have had doing everything I'd ever planned to do with my Life.... because I still have one to plan. |
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BlondeAmbition3
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2013 : 13:30:35
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FYI:
* Properly formulated Bloodroot does NOTHING to non diseased tissue. Nothing. Nada. Never. I can prove it.
* I just want to add. In 2008 I was 'terminal'... there was NO HOPE For me. Stage 4 SYSTEMIC Squamous Cell Carcinoma. No Doctor alive anywhere could help me. I was on my own.
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GentlerApproach
3 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2013 : 13:40:10
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quote:
Originally posted by BlondeAmbition3
quote:
Originally posted by GentlerApproach
quote:
Originally posted by julypanda
This Forum isn't for everyone. Bloodroot isn't for everyone. It's for those of us who have NO OTHER HOPE and/or options. It does no harm when used correctly and unlike the current "Medical Model' it allows the body to heal naturally. I recommend that all YOU PEOPLE in opposition of Bloodroot do what you feel you need to do and WE (alternative People) will do what we need to do..... continue to help others who decide to go against the medical Model and use natural Products to help rid our bodies of Cancer and other diseases. No matter how hard we try, sometimes the CANCER is just going to have already invaded and destroyed so much tissue that regardless of the Modality used, disfigurement and or irrevocable damage is bound to happen. We're not invading and disrupting your Forums, so do us the courtesy of not invading and disrupting ours. I'm alive because of Bloodroot... and I will never allow people like you to prevent me from sharing that fact, that truth, that Salvation with others.
Look, I have to address some of your points here because they illustrate why us newcomers are so concerned. Stay with me here and listen to what I have to say, I'll lay this out clearly and concisely:
quote:
Bloodroot isn't for everyone. It's for those of us who have NO OTHER HOPE and/or options.
Hoxsey had other options. She said she had a BCC removed prior and it left minimal scarring. She could have had the BCC on her nose and forehead removed the same way. She chose not to, you all encouraged that choice. She DID have a choice.
quote:
It does no harm when used correctly
If it does no harm when used correctly, are you suggesting that Hoxsey used this incorrectly? Everyone on this forum cheered her on and kept reassuring her that what she did was right, that her body was healing and the salve was hunting down the cancer and removing it. So which is it? Was she using it right and it just scarred her and forced her into multiple, expensive surgeries, or was she using it incorrectly while Bonder et al were telling her she was doing the right thing?
quote:
It does no harm when used correctly and unlike the current "Medical Model' it allows the body to heal naturally.
So, when she was forced into taking Vicodin for the pain, and then had to have surgery to remove cancer that the salve missed, then had to have plastic surgery to have her nose and forehead reconstructed - that's what you call "allowing the body to heal naturally?" It would seem to me that your jab at the "current Medical Model" is unwarranted since the "current Medical Model" was ultimately the model that eased her pain and repaired the damage done by the current "Alternative Model" that this forum pushes.
quote:
I recommend that all YOU PEOPLE in opposition of Bloodroot do what you feel you need to do and WE (alternative People) will do what we need to do..... continue to help others who decide to go against the medical Model and use natural Products to help rid our bodies of Cancer and other diseases.
The problem that those of us in "opposition" to the use of these salves have, is that there are forums like this that provide reams and reams of harmful advice to people who are frightened, desperate, ignorant, or unaware of safer, more effective medical treatments. If you try to contest this point, I will happily go through posts on page one that are medically erroneous and offer nothing but misinformation and bad advice. In fact, the only good advice I think I saw on the first page of this thread was that Hoxsey go to see a doctor. Hindsight is 20/20, I suppose.
The substances you all seem to think are specifically targeting cancer are doing no such thing. It's a shotgun approach that causes catastrophic tissue damage and cell death to both healthy and cancerous cells. Again, the before and after photos say everything that needs to be said in this regard. A surgical procedure would have been a far safer, less expensive, and far less damaging alternative.
quote:
No matter how hard we try, sometimes the CANCER is just going to have already invaded and destroyed so much tissue that regardless of the Modality used, disfigurement and or irrevocable damage is bound to happen.
As I mentioned above, this post further illustrates the complete and utter lack of understanding of how these products work. The damage done to Hoxsey's face, and anyone else who had been disfigured by these products is not cause by cancer or the salve's imagined aggressive pursuit of cancer. The damage is done by the product itself. Read that again: The products you are using are destroying your tissues whether cancer is present or not. The damage done is not linked to the amount of cancer present, it's linked to the use and abuse of the salve itself.
quote:
We're not invading and disrupting your Forums, so do us the courtesy of not invading and disrupting ours.
People are here "disrupting" your forum because news of this poor woman's suffering got out and spread around the net. Of all the people who have seen this story, a tiny handful have come here out of concern, sadness, and even anger. Your forum is a tiny, tiny minority who feels these practices are safe, effective, and "natural." The reason your tiny minority is feeling the heat right now is because the overwhelming majority of people learning about this story find it abhorrent, disheartening, and dangerous.
I imagine that view may reinforce your community's belief that you're all onto something esoteric and that nobody else will understand it because we've all been brainwashed by the System, or something of the sort. I certainly hope that's not the case because quite frankly, it would be an absurd notion to harbour. People freak out when they hear and see this story because it's indicative of unhealthy modes of thought and unsafe practices, period.
quote:
I'm alive because of Bloodroot... and I will never allow people like you to prevent me from sharing that fact, that truth, that Salvation with others.
This is the most disturbing thing you've said thus far. I'm sure you think you're alive because of bloodroot but you could have been saved by a doctor's expertise just as easily, and probably far less traumatically.
This isn't about your experience, this is about Hoxsey and all the terrible misinformation and advice the poor woman has been given by people who don't understand the chemicals they're dealing with. YOU, specifically YOU, julypanda, may have the right to share your story; but you most certainly don't have the expertise or medical knowledge to offer advice on the application of a substance that literally ate away healthy tissue and disfigured another human being. You don't have the expertise to advise on the recovery required to deal with that trauma, nor do you have the expertise to espouse the use of such products to people you've never met and/or have no clue as to what their medical history is.
Go back and look at the pictures of the damage this salve did to Hoxsey. Go back and look. If you don't go back and look, ask yourself why you aren't.
People have come to this thread voicing their concern and anger because they're upset. They just saw and read about a woman who disfigured her face because she eschewed proper medical advice and assistance in favour of a group of people who have no certification, knowledge, or experience in the proper, safe, treatment of skin cancers.
And look where it got her:
- A disfigured forehead and nose.
- Medical expenses far beyond what a Mohs surgery would have cost her.
- Weeks of pain.
- Months of concern, fear, anxiety, and emotional suffering.
If you think that's better than the "current Medical Model," the medical model that can perform a removal of a BCC in an outpatient procedure with a ~99% success rate, then I'm afraid you're beyond all hope of having any sort of reasonable discussion with.
Again, to anyone considering this type of "salve treatment" - reconsider. It isn't safe, and there are better medical options out there.
You think your arguments are valid... they aren't. I don't advocate ANYONE to use Bloodroot... each person has to make a personal decision based on their own research and due diligence ...I didn't advocate that Hoxsey use it.... merely offered consolation and support 'after' the fact. No one encouraged or advocated I use it.. I used it because I found it to be the right thing for ME to do. You're making a LOT of 'assumptions' here also.... you're assuming Hoxsey didn't get all of the Cancer with the Bloodroot.... No one can say with 100 percent certainty whether she did or didn't.... the Doctors performed surgery reconstructive surgery that probably would have had to have been performed anyway because her Cancer had already destroyed so much tissue that her nose was not able to be saved no matter what methods used. It happens... I had a Friend with breast Cancer who chose the traditional Medical Model (Chemo & Radiation) and her breast still turned black and rotted off before she died.... The 'kind' Medical Model held no hope for her. I have dozens of dead Friends from Cancer who have been POISONED, disfigured and cut to pieces using the traditional Medical Model. I also know DOZENS who are alive & well using Bloodroot and other natural methods.... It's OUR choices.... and whether you care to believe it or not is YOUR biased choice. Every one of us who choose whatever paths to our wellness have to inform ourselves to ALL of the options available and then weigh the risks accordingly. Unfortunately, there are some unhappy endings. This IS about MY experience... it's about everyone's experiences.... and you can not say with any certainty whatsoever (nor can anyone else for that matter) that Hoxsey's outcome would have been 'better' if she'd have gone YOUR recommended route. You think the traditional Medical Model is the better option out there... many of us don't. You will NOT silence my voice with yours because I KNOW that you're wrong. Nature has everything we need for our health and healing and of that I am certain. Conventional Medicine, on the other hand, is only concerned with palliative therapies and 'sick care'... and it's probably WHY you're on this Forum.... because they're tired of losing millions to the people who are genuinely HEALED because of alternative therapies. I KNOW because I shouldn't be here right now.... if I had gone the traditional Medical Route I'd already have been buried years ago. Instead, I'm CURED... spending time I wouldn't otherwise have had doing everything I'd ever planned to do with my Life.... because I still have one to plan.
Many people in the thread continued to encourage Hoxsey's use of the salve when it should have been clear it was doing tremendous damage. That's not an "assumption" that's a fact, it's all there in the comments. I actually went through and read everything that Hoxsey and others said.
My arguments are plenty valid. If you feel otherwise, why don't you do a better job of showing why you feel that's the case? I'm sorry that your friends died of cancer and you feel that "kind Medical Model" didn't help them but how do you know your salves would have done any better? You don't.
Cancer sucks. It's horrible. Sometimes it's too much and there's nothing any treatment can do to save a person. You're not the only person who has lost friends to cancer. I, on the other hand, have lost people because they opted for "Alternative treatments" when they should have just gone to a doctor - but you know, maybe even a doctor couldn't have saved them at that point.
That's the thing though, Hoxsey's cancer was a type that has a ~99% success rate when treated with modern medicine. She's already evidence that model works (her previous surgery on her lip) and does so with minimal scarring. What she instead chose to do was try a salve that destroyed more of her face than the standard surgery would have. How can you even dispute that when she herself is a living comparison of the two options?
You tell me I can't say for certainty that Hoxsey's outcome would have been better if she went the medical route - to which I respond, look at the success of her previous surgery (she linked a photo of the results). That's a pretty solid indicator of what she could have expected, wouldn't you say?
quote:
You will NOT silence my voice with yours because I KNOW that you're wrong.
I'm not trying to silence your voice, I'm trying to illustrate that some of the views here are harmful. They are. Hoxsey is a prime example of what happens when people take harmful advice.
Also, you don't KNOW I'm wrong. You think I'm wrong because you hold a different opinion. From my first post I said you're all welcome to do whatever suits you to your own bodies - nobody denies that. The issue people have with what's going on here is that many of you are promoting actions and offering advice when you're not in a position to do so without potentially jeopardizing someone's health.
quote:
Conventional Medicine, on the other hand, is only concerned with palliative therapies and 'sick care'... and it's probably WHY you're on this Forum.... because they're tired of losing millions to the people who are genuinely HEALED because of alternative therapies.
Come on now, this is a silly leap to make. Conventional medicine is one of the reasons our species is as successful as it is today. Conventional medicine is the reason crippling diseases have been essentially eliminated from entire populations of people. It's the reason people survive traumatic illnesses and injuries. I'm not here because I'm a member of some covert organization that's trying to get back lost money by poisoning the well of alternative medicine; I'm here because I'm concerned for people like Hoxsey. People who have/had other safer options that would have spared them months of suffering.
quote:
I KNOW because I shouldn't be here right now.... if I had gone the traditional Medical Route I'd already have been buried years ago. Instead, I'm CURED... spending time I wouldn't otherwise have had doing everything I'd ever planned to do with my Life.... because I still have one to plan.
It's too bad all the people who opted for alternative medicines that ultimately failed them can't voice their opinions on the matter. |
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Chill
17 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2013 : 13:50:56
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You'd call BlondeAmbition3's response an example of the "backfire effect", where some people tend to dig in when confronted with opposing evidence, sometimes strengthening the erroneous belief. No one knows why, but people identifying too closely with a belief can feel the questioning of it as a personal attack.
But it's not all her fault. There's a shared cognitive bias at work which you'd call "communal reinforcement" where something is believed because it's repeated in a community enough times. Doesn't matter if it's actually true, the thing becomes true because you've heard it said, and the person who said it is a good person. Then you come to a site like this and there's a whole bunch of good people to talk to, and the information from them must be good. Nope.
Stay safe. |
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shazbot
4 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2013 : 14:51:30
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| GentlerApproach you are far too kind. You are most certainly far too logical. These people cannot be reasoned with. Your sound arguments and reasoning do nothing but drive them deeper into their delusion. The very act of presenting a coherent argument only embeds them further. We can only hope these fools find a "natural" cure more detrimental to one's health than zinc chloride. The herd needs thinning. And to you chill, enough with the sympathizing. If one chooses to behave like an idiot they should expect to be treated as such. |
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julypanda
Australia
43 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2013 : 16:14:40
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Gentlerapproach, thank you for your much nicer words than that of your forum. I can understand where you are coming from, but everyone has their own ideas and own reasons. However, I do applaud for your nicely worded approach. It has made me stop and think....
Shazbot - it is people like you that rather than want to read what you have written, simply choose to turn off due to your arrogance.
At least in this forum we don't use the "eff" word in every single sentence. It is mostly people talking about their experience, or people asking questions trying to find answers to alternative treatments. If we were all the same it would be a boring world, and the doctors would have all the power.
Just my thoughts anyway. |
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djt10
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2013 : 18:26:31
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Somebody out there still believes that conventional cancer therapies work and that oncologists know their business? My old naturopath (who cured my cancer and other chronic/degenerative diseases all at the same time with a 5 week treatment)used to call conventional cancer treatments "barbaric" and after years of research, I think he was being kind. He cured all of his cancer patients who went there first and most of them who came as a last resort after their oncologists sent them home to die (after the insurance ran out). No drugs, no chemo, no radiation, nothing harmful whatsoever. When it comes to conventional cancer treatment, Australia did a study of the US compared to Australian cure rates using chemo. The overall average survival rate for both countries was around 2.3% I believe. That's survival at the 5 year junction. Some treatments have a higher survival rate than that, some lower, some none at all. That's the averaged statistic. "Spontaneous remission" has a 5% cure rate. That's for doing nothing at all. That means you have a better chance of survival doing nothing than trusting an oncologist with your life and well-being. At least bloodroot and zinc chloride are specific for abnormal cells and tissues, unlike any kind of conventional cancer treatment. For someone who lost substantial tissue to a salve treatment, imagine what it would have been if they had tried to surgically find all of the affected tissue, what happens when you cut into a cancer, and what happens when you miss cancer cells and can't chase after the roots. Not one single person in my family or my husband's who has had cancer and submitted to "state-of-the-art" cancer treatment has survived. Not one. My best friend has been against alternative treatment for decades since an elderly uncle went after some obscure alternative treatment and died anyway, but when she came back with a bad mammogram she suddenly had a change of heart and did a salve treatment. It took ages for that thing to close up and she was getting really worried, but as long as there is something in there that needs more work or to continue draining out, the opening usually stays open or heals over abnormally. Hers has completely closed up now and she went back for a mammogram and got a clean bill of health this time. But we only use salve treatment as part of a much larger protocol which involves changing our pH, careful diet, detoxing and doing everything possible to raise our overall level of health. Still, we've been using salve since 1986 and will continue to do so rather than ever, EVER trust "conventional cancer treatment" which has failed dismally, as evidenced by the "war on cancer" statistics which began in the 1950's, I think, and have gone downhill ever since. Hippocrates, the "Father of Western Medicine" must be turning over in his grave. He knew what real healing was about and there is no resemblance to what passes as conventional medicine these days. Emergency medicine, the treatment of injuries, deformities and that kind of affliction is another story, but for the treatment of acute and chronic disease, infection, and other kinds of illness--we've gone backwards into a new dark age of medicine. It's too bad when people who haven't done their homework and know so little about the real world picture of medicine chose to get their jollies by attacking others who have and do, but they run amuck with closed minds and a battering ram mentality so it's pointless to try to duke it out with them...and a waste of time and energy. They are just part of the endless perils that pioneers have to face and best ignored when possible. And don't think that Big Pharma is above sending people out to harass people on sites like this. I used to monitor on an international complaint site and we had to deal with professional rabblerousers all the time.
Unless we put medical freedom into the Constitution, the time will come
when medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship to restrict
the art of healing to one class of Men and deny equal privileges to
others; the Constitution of the Republic should make a Special
privilege for medical freedoms as well as religious freedom.
#8213; Benjamin Rush, MD
Signer on the Constitution |
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the
1 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2013 : 02:02:08
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quote:
Originally posted by djt10
My old naturopath (who cured my cancer and other chronic/degenerative diseases all at the same time with a 5 week treatment)used to call conventional cancer treatments "barbaric" and after years of research, I think he was being kind. He cured all of his cancer patients who went there first and most of them who came as a last resort after their oncologists sent them home to die (after the insurance ran out). No drugs, no chemo, no radiation, nothing harmful whatsoever.
Can you provide a website or link to this individual's claims?
quote:
When it comes to conventional cancer treatment, Australia did a study of the US compared to Australian cure rates using chemo. The overall average survival rate for both countries was around 2.3% I believe. That's survival at the 5 year junction. Some treatments have a higher survival rate than that, some lower, some none at all. That's the averaged statistic. "Spontaneous remission" has a 5% cure rate. That's for doing nothing at all. That means you have a better chance of survival doing nothing than trusting an oncologist with your life and well-being.
This is how we can tell you're delusional. A 10-second search by a child could tell you that cancer survival rates for most cancers in the Western world are well above 50%.
Furthermore, there is no known rate at which spontaneous regression occurs. Breast cancer, for example, may have a rate as high as 20%. Other cancers may have a rate as low as 1 in 100,000.
quote:
At least bloodroot and zinc chloride are specific for abnormal cells and tissues, unlike any kind of conventional cancer treatment.
The existence of this very thread shows that it does not only target abnormal cells and tissue.
quote:
Still, we've been using salve since 1986 and will continue to do so rather than ever, EVER trust "conventional cancer treatment" which has failed dismally, as evidenced by the "war on cancer" statistics which began in the 1950's, I think, and have gone downhill ever since.
Again, your facts are just plain wrong. Cancer treatment effectiveness has been, generally speaking, increasing steadily over the last 40 years in Western societies. Some cancers, like lung cancer, have not seen much change in survivability unfortunately. Most have, however.
In the period between 1990 and 2005, cancer death rates in the US dropped around 20% for men, and about 11% for women. The 5-year survival rate for all diagnosed cancers was up 66% percent in the period of 1996-2004. Since the mid-2000s, cancer death rates have continued to fall.
quote:
Hippocrates, the "Father of Western Medicine" must be turning over in his grave. He knew what real healing was about and there is no resemblance to what passes as conventional medicine these days.
Hippocrates lived in a pre-scientific period when essentially nothing was known about medicine or physics. He should not at all be considered an authority on anything, let alone the efficacy of modern treatments.
quote:
Emergency medicine, the treatment of injuries, deformities and that kind of affliction is another story, but for the treatment of acute and chronic disease, infection, and other kinds of illness--we've gone backwards into a new dark age of medicine.
The facts don't back you up. Cancer survivability is just one indication that you're out of touch with reality.
quote:
And don't think that Big Pharma is above sending people out to harass people on sites like this. I used to monitor on an international complaint site and we had to deal with professional rabblerousers all the time.
Oh no, the Big Pharma bogey man. Hide your wife, hide your kids, and hide your husband.
Even if the voices of reason on here were working for pharmaceutical companies, ad hominem attacks are still ad hominem attacks.
quote:
Unless we put medical freedom into the Constitution, the time will come when medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship to restrict the art of healing to one class of Men and deny equal privileges to others; the Constitution of the Republic should make a Special privilege for medical freedoms as well as religious freedom.
Benjamin Rush also practiced medicine in a mostly pre-scientific capacity, and should also not be used as an authority on anything. Nevertheless, adults will always have the right to do stupid things to themselves, like the individuals in this thread so callously encourage others to do.
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muderousegg
2 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2013 : 08:32:36
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| I love you GentlerApproach |
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BlondeAmbition3
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2013 : 13:04:48
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quote:
Originally posted by djt10
Somebody out there still believes that conventional cancer therapies work and that oncologists know their business? My old naturopath (who cured my cancer and other chronic/degenerative diseases all at the same time with a 5 week treatment)used to call conventional cancer treatments "barbaric" and after years of research, I think he was being kind. He cured all of his cancer patients who went there first and most of them who came as a last resort after their oncologists sent them home to die (after the insurance ran out). No drugs, no chemo, no radiation, nothing harmful whatsoever. When it comes to conventional cancer treatment, Australia did a study of the US compared to Australian cure rates using chemo. The overall average survival rate for both countries was around 2.3% I believe. That's survival at the 5 year junction. Some treatments have a higher survival rate than that, some lower, some none at all. That's the averaged statistic. "Spontaneous remission" has a 5% cure rate. That's for doing nothing at all. That means you have a better chance of survival doing nothing than trusting an oncologist with your life and well-being. At least bloodroot and zinc chloride are specific for abnormal cells and tissues, unlike any kind of conventional cancer treatment. For someone who lost substantial tissue to a salve treatment, imagine what it would have been if they had tried to surgically find all of the affected tissue, what happens when you cut into a cancer, and what happens when you miss cancer cells and can't chase after the roots. Not one single person in my family or my husband's who has had cancer and submitted to "state-of-the-art" cancer treatment has survived. Not one. My best friend has been against alternative treatment for decades since an elderly uncle went after some obscure alternative treatment and died anyway, but when she came back with a bad mammogram she suddenly had a change of heart and did a salve treatment. It took ages for that thing to close up and she was getting really worried, but as long as there is something in there that needs more work or to continue draining out, the opening usually stays open or heals over abnormally. Hers has completely closed up now and she went back for a mammogram and got a clean bill of health this time. But we only use salve treatment as part of a much larger protocol which involves changing our pH, careful diet, detoxing and doing everything possible to raise our overall level of health. Still, we've been using salve since 1986 and will continue to do so rather than ever, EVER trust "conventional cancer treatment" which has failed dismally, as evidenced by the "war on cancer" statistics which began in the 1950's, I think, and have gone downhill ever since. Hippocrates, the "Father of Western Medicine" must be turning over in his grave. He knew what real healing was about and there is no resemblance to what passes as conventional medicine these days. Emergency medicine, the treatment of injuries, deformities and that kind of affliction is another story, but for the treatment of acute and chronic disease, infection, and other kinds of illness--we've gone backwards into a new dark age of medicine. It's too bad when people who haven't done their homework and know so little about the real world picture of medicine chose to get their jollies by attacking others who have and do, but they run amuck with closed minds and a battering ram mentality so it's pointless to try to duke it out with them...and a waste of time and energy. They are just part of the endless perils that pioneers have to face and best ignored when possible. And don't think that Big Pharma is above sending people out to harass people on sites like this. I used to monitor on an international complaint site and we had to deal with professional rabblerousers all the time.
Unless we put medical freedom into the Constitution, the time will come
when medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship to restrict
the art of healing to one class of Men and deny equal privileges to
others; the Constitution of the Republic should make a Special
privilege for medical freedoms as well as religious freedom.
#8213; Benjamin Rush, MD
Signer on the Constitution
Well put djt10. This post gets a well deserved TRUTH BUMP!!!!
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Bwakul
Australia
21 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2013 : 22:26:17
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Thank you to others who have already pointed out some of the errors and inconsistencies in djt10's posts. It am also astounded at those offering advice in such a serious situation without medical training and at times very limited understanding of the basic science. The hubris involved is mind blowing.
I wanted to make a couple of points.
Your statement that modern medicine has gone backwards in the treatment of acute and chronic disease is laughable. The number of people saved or whose life expectancy and quality of life has been improved by medical breakthroughs in the last 100 years is a wonder of human achievement.
Treatments evolve from a scientific approach to the study of our natural world. Otherwise we would be hanging on to the countless myths and guesses and snake oil salesmen of the past. Unfortunately, it has been shown again and again that individual patient testimonials and anecdotes are misleading when assessing medical treatments for efficacy. A systematic and statistical approach is required when looking at any type of treatment.
Although we live in a world corrupted by money and power, big pharma does have some balances and checks in place. There are thousands of academic medical research institutions out there, government and charitable instituons, that are not motivated by money alone, but by RESULTS. If black salve was the miracle treatment you claim it to be there would be scientists activiely eager for involvement in studies looking to confirm efficacy ex vivo and in animal studies to start with. If it passed this stage, then clinical studies would have followed. |
Edited by - Bwakul on 07/30/2013 01:55:49 |
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Bwakul
Australia
21 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2013 : 02:10:21
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Might be wise to read the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for Zinc Chloride before applying this "natural" product to your face.
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927328
Potential Acute Health Effects:
Very hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Hazardous in case of skin contact (corrosive, permeator), of eye contact (corrosive). The amount of tissue damage depends on length of contact. Eye contact can result in corneal damage or blindness. Skin contact can produce inflammation and blistering. Inhalation of dust
will produce irritation to gastro-intestinal or respiratory tract, characterized by burning, sneezing and coughing. Severe over- exposure can produce lung damage, choking, unconsciousness or death. Inflammation of the eye is characterized by redness, watering, and itching. Skin inflammation is characterized by itching, scaling, reddening, or, occasionally, blistering.
Potential Chronic Health Effects:
CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Classified POSSIBLE for human. Mutagenic for mammalian somatic cells. Mutagenic for bacteria and/or yeast. TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Not available. The substance may be toxic to kidneys, pancreas. Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage. Repeated exposure of the eyes to a low level of dust can produce eye irritation. Repeated skin exposure can produce local skin destruction, or dermatitis. Repeated inhalation of dust can produce varying degree of respiratory irritation or lung damage.
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shazbot
4 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2013 : 13:31:34
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The most fascinating thing about people like djt10 and the morons who believe the nonsense she spews is their complete disdain. She writes in one post "I did some research on zinc chloride." Really? You did some research. Utterly laughable. Visiting a fellow quacks website to read their insane posting about how zinc chloride works does not equal research. djt10 you would not even have the slightest clue where to begin actual research on any compound.
More words of wisdom from djt10 "Becca, black salve doesn't eat through the flesh. If there's no abnormal tissues on top or beneath, it just sits there and does nothing except possible turn the skin a little pink." djt10 you forgot to add that turn a little pink equals your entire nose will be corroded and will be painfully removed from your face.
My favorite from djt10 on this forum has to be this gem "The electromagnetic field of the earth and sunlight are terribly important and unfortunately the kind of shoe soles we all wear now (that wasn't a problem with leather soles) are a boundary to the healing force of the earth, but sunlight is more critically important." I love it. It really is, almost impossible to believe that these ideas exist in a human's brain. The fact that these words, in this order, have come out of this woman's mouth without everyone in earshot bursting into uncontrollable laughter amazes me.
djt10 you are insane. You are a moron of the highest degree. The fact that anyone listens to the nonsense you blabber about and then applies it to their daily life is disturbing. People like you exist on the fringe of society and thankfully so. You deserve to be ridiculed and shoved into a more obscure place than you already exist. |
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julypanda
Australia
43 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2013 : 16:01:53
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Shazbot - why do you feel the need to take personal swipes at people.
You don't have to like what djt10 has to say, same as we don't have to like what you have to say. But to come on here and start name calling is just ridiculous.
As a matter of interest - have you ever personally used Black Salve?
If not, then you have no right voicing your opinion on whether it is good or bad / right or wrong.
People have been cured by black salve, people have been cured by surgery/chemo - does not make either of them wrong.
Same as people have been disfigured by black salve as they have with surgery. We make choices in our lives - lets not ridicule people for their choices. |
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djt10
USA
48 Posts |
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djt10
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2013 : 21:51:59
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| Isn't it interesting that "alternative medicine haters" have found and targeted this site. I've been doing research and writing, specifically featuring government statistics, since 1979. I wish I had more time to spend here, but arguing with people like these is not a productive use of time. |
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djt10
USA
48 Posts |
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Bwakul
Australia
21 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2013 : 22:34:06
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quote:
Originally posted by djt10
Isn't it interesting that "alternative medicine haters" have found and targeted this site. I've been doing research and writing, specifically featuring government statistics, since 1979. I wish I had more time to spend here, but arguing with people like these is not a productive use of time.
Yes, let's just overlook the very misleading statement you keep repeating that survival rates for cancer patients receiving chemo are only 2%. Did you even read the study or are you regurgitating the 2% thing that is thrown around a lot in alternative circles,?
"The conclusion was that chemo only improved survival rates by an average of 2%. That doesn't mean that only 2% of cancer patients receiving chemo survive past the 5 year mark. You have wrongly interpreted it that way. What it really means is that if everyone that has ever been told they have cancer, be it Stage 1 prostate cancer or Stage 4 lung cancer, has an average “survival” rate of 60%, then chemo will increase that percentage by 2%. The term “survival” or “cure” refers to the 5 year mark in the cancer world. Now, if you have a 60% chance of making it to 5 years, then this study proved that chemotherapy will increase your chance by 2%. So, after chemo, you will have a 62% chance of survival. It's different from the idea that only 2% of chemo patients “make it”, but it isn't exactly a glowing report either. And it depends entirely on the type of cancer. According to other studies, cancer patients with high grade astrocytomas have a 3% survival rate. According to the Australia study, brain cancer patients who receive chemotherapy increase their survival rate by 3.7%. Now you might say that doubles their chances, and you would be right. Having a 6.7% chance of living for 5 more years does sound better than a 3% chance. But of course you have to consider the side effects of chemo and the quality of life you could expect afterwards. The quality of life issue is a major deciding factor for Why patients are so strongly against trying any sort of chemotherapy. For others, extending the time they have with their families may be the most important factor and therefore choosing to try chemo makes sense."
Of course, this relates very little to the survival rates for BCC, which are close to 100% with early diagnosis and modern treatment options which rarely include chemo.
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Horrux
Canada
16 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2013 : 02:04:32
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I have BCC on my chest. I am male. I went to the dermatologist, who "suggested" (meaning decided on) surgery. I accepted, thinking "Iow hard could it be? It's on my chest, there's tons of skin around it, she'll just remove an entire skin patch with a large, say 1 inch wide, safety zone around it, and then zip it up with stitches", because, well, that's the sensible approach. But no, no, no. She had to just scratch at it, removing it very incompletely.
It is a known fact that cancers grow faster once they've been cut and not completely excised. Well guess what. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
I've been using the Black Salve successfully on my lesions, which are now much larger than just before the dermatologist's surgery, but I am getting rid of it, quite unlike conventional medicine did.
After seeing Hoxsey's photos and according to my own experience, ONLY diseased tissue is affected by Black Salve, which means it creates the MINIMUM scarring you can possibly have. Surgical tools will NEVER, EVER achieve such precision.
Here's my video series, currently running 12 videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLd5ZAHbQyq3OyZY7Jt-OAQmjTiSHGjyJi
This stuff is the real deal and you so-called "quack busters" can go back to living under a rock, where you belong. |
Edited by - Horrux on 07/31/2013 02:05:12 |
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Chill
17 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2013 : 03:11:35
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Okay Horrux here's an experiment for you: apply the black salve to a healthy area of your skin and document the process on youtube. According to you your skin should remain unaffected besides a slight reddening? Please clarify exactly what you expect.
I'd expect it to eat into the skin and cause scabbing and scarring in the exact same way as when applied to a BCC.
Are you willing to give this a go my friend? |
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Bwakul
Australia
21 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2013 : 05:56:36
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| Quite easy to fake that experiment with some drawing cream or vegemite. |
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Bwakul
Australia
21 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2013 : 06:06:09
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Besides, it's possible the black salve has the worst impact when it is applied to an area where the skin is already damaged or broken (ie. when you have a skin cancer), hence why some have suggested in here that you puncture or create an opening on the skin. Could also be that it is much worse on the face because the skin on the face is very sensitive.
Who knows though, it really needs to be properly clinically investigated before I would go near the stuff. Why in the hell would you take the risk? I think that's the real point.
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Chill
17 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2013 : 07:23:24
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| Yes, it seems it would have to be applied to broken skin to recreate similar conditions. That's not a test I expect him to make. |
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Horrux
Canada
16 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2013 : 08:57:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Chill
Okay Horrux here's an experiment for you: apply the black salve to a healthy area of your skin and document the process on youtube. According to you your skin should remain unaffected besides a slight reddening? Please clarify exactly what you expect.
I'd expect it to eat into the skin and cause scabbing and scarring in the exact same way as when applied to a BCC.
Are you willing to give this a go my friend?
Oh, I have done this experiment. I have applied black salve generously around areas that were affected by skin cancer, and there was no effect whatsoever. I'll do the video if you want me to, but it will not show anything at all.
I suggest something else: you buy the black salve, and you spread it on your skin. If you feel it eating into your skin, take it off. If you feel nothing and it does nothing, now you know.
In the end, we, the users of this product, know that it works exactly as advertized. You just don't want to believe that Big Pharma is that corrupt, that such easy, natural, inexpensive cures for cancer exist when cancer is a $500,000,000,000 a year industry. Yes, that is 500 Billion dollars. Hey, if you yourself had "only" a few billion in the balance, would YOU feel like stifling these "dangerous" ideas of easy cures? Most people would. And that's what's happening. The billions talk, and Big Pharma is able to make BETTER youtube videos than most users, "debunking quackery". Of course! There are 500 billion dollars annually to protect... Do the math. |
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shazbot
4 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2013 : 10:52:55
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Lookout the scholar djt10 has been doing research. Well djt10 I read every single article you posted. I would be willing to bet you did not. Here is one pertinent quote from Rethinking the War on Cancer.
"The need for such a major shift in attitude and emphasis already seems to be better understood by the public than by
the “cancer establishment.” But the public needs substantial information and guidance if it is to avoid both the grave
perils of faddism and a loss of faith in the well-established benefits of orthodox medical treatment at its best. [It is
important to note that my comments about lack of progress are in no way an argument against the earliest possible
diagnosis and the best possible treatment of cancer. Modern medicine already has much to offer to virtually every
cancer patient, for palliation if not always for cure; the problem is the lack of any substantial recent improvement in
treating the most common forms of cancer. There is no comfort here for the “medical counterculture".
All of the articles you have referenced generally say the same thing. Cancer is a devastating disease in whichever way it presents itself. Despite the billions of dollars spent on research into new medicines/treatments we are still left with limited success in the prognosis. The ability to treat some forms of cancer(Hodgkin's Lymphoma, Leukemia, Prostate and breast cancer) has made significant advances while others(lung, liver, bone and brain) can only be managed with extreme intervention and are almost always fatal. No sane person would deny that this is very disheartening news. Nobody with a working brain would be surprised to read this information. It is common knowledge to the well informed. As I said cancer is a devastating and complex disease. Cancer has been with humans since we began walking this earth. http://www.archaiologia.gr/en/blog/2013/06/07/the-oldest-tumour-found-in-the-human-fossil-record. It has been just over four decades since we embarked on a journey to eradicate this scourge. We are using the best tools available to us. Tools we have gained by the application of modern scientific principles. Once again you have made no real point. All that you have shown is your ability to copy and paste.
One fact still remains. A hapless, down and out, uninformed dope named hoxsey came here. She had a small red sore on her nose. For arguments sake lets just say it was most certainly basal cell carcinoma. She was probably led here by the "teachings" of another alternative medicine practitioner. One maybe not so illuminated as you, with the grand knowledge of the restorative powers of the sun, and the earths magnetic fields. This forum inserts into her decidedly empty mind the idea of black salve. Hoxsey purchases this magical elixir and applies it to her face. Her entire nose is burned from her face. Her forehead left with a gigantic puss oozing wound and eventual scar. Thinking she misheard your scholarly directions on the application of the salve she returns mid corrosion only to be told to apply more. To fill gel capsules and ingest the very compound that is currently removing the flesh from her face. Had hoxsey never heard of black salve. Had she never unwittingly stumbled upon this forum. Had she not received advice from the exalted djt10 and bonder. Had she gone to a real doctor. A trained professional. She would have been treated successfully. She would still have a nose. There is absolutely no arguing that. Basal cell carcinoma when caught early, which it was, as evidenced by the picture is curable. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000824.htm
To you julypanda. No I have never tried black salve. I would never apply a highly corrosive compound to my skin. The argument that black salve or zinc chloride only targets cancer cells and not healthy tissue is laughable. This is clearly evidenced by hoxsey and her disappearing nose trick. Lets do a little chemistry.
Zinc chlorides, of which nine crystalline forms are known, are colorless or white, and are highly soluble in water. No mineral with this chemical composition is known aside from a very rare mineral, simonkolleite. So much for the "natural" cure. ZnCl2 itself is hygroscopic and even deliquescent. Samples should therefore be protected from sources of moisture, including the water vapor present in ambient air. Aqueous(with water) solutions of ZnCl2 are acidic. The formation of highly reactive anhydrous HCl gas is formed when zinc chloride hydrates are heated. Now I am not a chemist but here goes. ZnCl2 reacts with water. Guess what there is a lot of in living tissue. The ZnCl2 and the water in your cells produce an exothermic reaction(releases heat). This reaction results in lots of heat and HCl. HCl is the gaseous form of hydrochloric acid. When the now produced HCl reacts with the water present in your tissues hydrochloric acid is formed. So...you rub the ZnCl2 salve on your skin. It reacts. Heat and hydrochloric acid are formed and surrounding tissue is dissolved by said acid. Oh, and it gets hot, and painful, and your nose goes away.
You know julypanda you respond to my posts as if I am some kind of arrogant jerk. I'm harsh and inconsiderate. I would say to you, take a good look in the mirror. I would say you are the inconsiderate jerk. You are the one who encourages stupidity. Not harmless innocent stupidity. Stupidity that results in the irreparable harm and disfiguration of people. You encourage terrible behavior and "truth bump" people like djt10. The things you and your brethren espouse on this board are absolute nonsense. I know that what I am writing on this board is a waste of time. I realize people like you and djt10 are so entrenched and insane no form of logic or reasoning could possibly succeed in change. But I do know this. When you and djt10 get into bed to night and rest your head on your pillows one thought will continue to run through your mind. And that thought is this. "Am I crazy...? Is Shazbot right? The answer to both is yes. |
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Bwakul
Australia
21 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2013 : 11:35:31
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Horux.
I managed a. Medical research lab for many years. Like many thousands of labs around the world, we were located in an academic facility. Our funding came from grants and charitable donations. Neither the lead scientist nor anyone else in the lab was motivated by money. Not that they weren't personally (most people are), but the culture often just does not exist to enable researchers in this setting to profit from their work. Success is generally measured by positive results, publications and progression to clinical treatments. Protection of IP was actually quite poorly managed. Even if you wanted to stretch your conspiracy theories further and say big pharma buys up any promising IP developed in academia and buries it, in practise this would be difficult to hide. There would usually be early publications of ex vivo and animal studies which would be in the public sphere, and many academic settings just don't handle commercialisation well. Hence, to the benefit of the community, research in areas of basic science and where there is little commercialisation potential is still supported. |
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djt10
USA
48 Posts |
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Chill
17 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2013 : 14:37:13
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Horrux, I've looked into it, Zinc Chloride does permeate cancer tissue better than healthy tissue. But only slightly - perhaps because of different densities? The reason it doesn't appear to effect healthy tissue as readily is because it cannot permeate the top layer of skin to the underlying tissue. Its entry point to the underlying tissue is through the cancerous tissue. This is the effective use of this product, which works in a brutish way by burning through the cancer into the skin.
In Hoxey's case (and many others) the skin has some kind of reaction, the Zinc Chloride permeates the top layer of skin and corrodes the underlying tissue. But I'm no scientist, so I'm not sure about the chemical actions here. All I know is it's scientifically impossible for zinc chloride not to corrode healthy tissue.
If you were to apply it over an open wound (no cancer), the entry point to the underlying tissue would be through the wound. As I mentioned, I don't expect you to perform this test.
I believe the medical industry is filled with corruption and profit chasing psychopaths, as is the case in most industries. In a better world businesses would be held to a size limit by a sober government, and the various companies would compete through ethical standards judged by a satisfied public. But the world is as it is.
I have no idea why you would presume to know how I feel or think about these matters based on such scant information, but you seem to be okay with that method.
None of you have been willing to admit that perhaps, just maybe, you did the wrong thing by not encouraging this woman to seek a doctors opinion. It appears you have a totally nasty opinion of doctors, believing every one to be a crap person? Is every single person selling natural medicine constantly blocking the sunlight beaming out their ass? No. That industry is packed with the same proportion of money hungry psychopaths. |
Edited by - Chill on 07/31/2013 15:05:32 |
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Bwakul
Australia
21 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2013 : 14:54:12
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quote:
Originally posted by djt10
From Newsweek magazine, "We Fought Cancer ...And Cancer Won" http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2008/09/05/we-fought-cancer-and-cancer-won.html
http://truthquest2.com/cancersalves.htm Bloodroot (Sanguinaria) specific to abnormal cells
Zinc chloride is not corrosive to organic materials other than silk and cellulose (plant cells) but it does break down fungi cell walls and similar cancer cell walls contain chitan which is closely related to cellulose. The claim that black salve "eats away" healthy tissue has no scientific basis, but of course that doesn't stop radical medical fanatics from screeching their nonsensical propaganda. Their attitude seems to be, "Don't confuse me with FACTS. I know what I know."
(Book) The War on Cancer: An Anatomy of Failure, A Blueprint for the Future
http://www.amazon.com/The-War-Cancer-Anatomy-Blueprint/dp/1402086202 (Looks like a well-researched book--I wish I could afford it)
Oh this response is priceless.
Nice one. I'm going to create my own website and then quote myself as a supporting source for all my own opinions. Lol. So what exactly are your medical/scientific credentials ?
I love the story from Dr Weil, who tries it on his dog (once) and then decides this is ample animal testing to show safety and efficacy before he moves directly onto human guinea pigs. |
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hmatt843
5 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2013 : 08:40:38
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Hi Horrux,
I understand you are likely trying to save money and that you are trying to keep high hopes, but I would encourage you to please reconsider your route of treatment and seek truly professional care. Your health should be of utmost concern and is not something to be toyed or experimented with. Please consider my words more seriously than you may be initially inclined to. |
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Horrux
Canada
16 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2013 : 09:55:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Bwakul
Horux.
I managed a. Medical research lab for many years. Like many thousands of labs around the world, we were located in an academic facility. Our funding came from grants and charitable donations. Neither the lead scientist nor anyone else in the lab was motivated by money. Not that they weren't personally (most people are), but the culture often just does not exist to enable researchers in this setting to profit from their work. Success is generally measured by positive results, publications and progression to clinical treatments. Protection of IP was actually quite poorly managed. Even if you wanted to stretch your conspiracy theories further and say big pharma buys up any promising IP developed in academia and buries it, in practise this would be difficult to hide. There would usually be early publications of ex vivo and animal studies which would be in the public sphere, and many academic settings just don't handle commercialisation well. Hence, to the benefit of the community, research in areas of basic science and where there is little commercialisation potential is still supported.
In any so-called "scientific" endeavor, there is always the looming specter of heresy. You will say, ah, but heresy is about religions, not about science, which is about objective observation of facts. Well, today "science" has become a religion, and whenever a "scientist" does not toe the line of what is generally accepted as "proper science" gets instantly ostracized.
You don't believe me? Go ahead, do some actual research on Black Salve, and see what the response is. And if the response isn't completely negative about your STUDYING it, just watch the so-called "scientific" community's reaction when you publish your results that indeed, Black Salve, with is myriad active ingredients, does induce the immune system to fight and destroy the cancer cells. But before that, just make sure your affairs are in order and that your insurance policy is very well thought out. You know, the mechanism by which black salve does this on skin cancer could easily be transposed on other types of tumors.
My credentials are that I am both a respected economist and a biologist. And I can tell you that the entire world would go into a recession just from acknowledgement by Big Pharma that something can indeed cure cancer. They will never do that. But I do encourage you to experiment with it. My making videos for you will never be enough. Videos can be doctored. In the end if you want to challenge your "skepticism", the only thing for you to do is to test it on yourself, and then try to find someone who has skin cancer who is willing to give it a shot. |
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Horrux
Canada
16 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2013 : 09:58:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Bwakul
quote:
Originally posted by djt10
From Newsweek magazine, "We Fought Cancer ...And Cancer Won" http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2008/09/05/we-fought-cancer-and-cancer-won.html
http://truthquest2.com/cancersalves.htm Bloodroot (Sanguinaria) specific to abnormal cells
Zinc chloride is not corrosive to organic materials other than silk and cellulose (plant cells) but it does break down fungi cell walls and similar cancer cell walls contain chitan which is closely related to cellulose. The claim that black salve "eats away" healthy tissue has no scientific basis, but of course that doesn't stop radical medical fanatics from screeching their nonsensical propaganda. Their attitude seems to be, "Don't confuse me with FACTS. I know what I know."
(Book) The War on Cancer: An Anatomy of Failure, A Blueprint for the Future
http://www.amazon.com/The-War-Cancer-Anatomy-Blueprint/dp/1402086202 (Looks like a well-researched book--I wish I could afford it)
Oh this response is priceless.
Nice one. I'm going to create my own website and then quote myself as a supporting source for all my own opinions. Lol. So what exactly are your medical/scientific credentials ?
I love the story from Dr Weil, who tries it on his dog (once) and then decides this is ample animal testing to show safety and efficacy before he moves directly onto human guinea pigs.
You want the big journals and Big Pharma to make a site proclaiming that their trillions in cancer research are all for nothing and that cheap, readily available natural products cure cancer? You want them to admit that their entire "mutated cells" thing is utter BS, and that it was a fungal invasion of said cells instead?
Really?
They will *NEVER*. |
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Horrux
Canada
16 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2013 : 10:04:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Chill
Yes, it seems it would have to be applied to broken skin to recreate similar conditions. That's not a test I expect him to make.
My black salve contains DMSO. You are right, if you don't understand the impact this has, you are no scientist, not even a Sunday one. DMSO (Dimethylsulfoxide) is a simple solvent that has the fascinating ability to transport pretty much anything through the skin. In other words, it doesn't matter what state your skin is in. Also, Zinc Chloride is a simple Zinc salt. Just like table salt, or sea salt, it is an EXTREMELY stable molecule, one that cannot enter into a chemical reaction with anything that makes up living tissue. |
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anivoc
668 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 01:41:10
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Chil, Bwakul, shazbot, crazyashello, hmatt843 all brand new users and all with a penchant against the use of bloodroot paste...coincidence? I think not.
This site is to share information and personal experiences...Dan makes ZERO money from this site and has no products to sell..
Some products come here and try and hype their goods...It is not allowed.. This is a place for people to come and share their experiences, success's, failures and get feedback on thoughts of how to proceed. The mantra do your own due diligence is critical..
The five entities mentioned above have come here with negative demeaning insults...old horror story post from quackwatch..etc.
Yes this is serious stuff...Too many REAL people have found alternative approaches that helped them in their battle against skin cancer here...Some of us are still searching...
You genius's should just start your own Thread where you can get together and giggle about all of the silly fools coming here with skin cancer trying to find a better way to deal with them...than the Gold Standard of the medical world...MOHS and the knife..
BTW do some research and you'll find good old doctor Mohs prior to doing the freezing microscope thing used bloodroot paste himself to identify the lesion area that needed to be removed...he'd apply 24 hours prior to surgery and then cut away the white areas that appeared the next day....
Or give Dr. Larson in Colorado a call..OK he's a horse Veterinarian he uses Bloodroot paste on horse sarcomas all the time...He must be Crazy too...
I've spoken to him and had him explain how bloodroot functions...but then again we're not horses are we...
This recent forum assault is more than a little bit weird... Not sure what the agenda is but there is a definitive and multi tiered pattern of attack going on here that I've never seen the likes of in the last 10 years of coming here..
Show your colors...
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Chill
17 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 02:32:09
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we came here because this thread was linked to from Reddit. Are you claiming we're shills? If that's the case then there's no hope for a normal discussion between human beings. Your mind is shut.
Horrux, Zinc Chloride is NOT safe to handle. If you'd like to look up the fact sheets on the chemical you'll clearly see that's it's corrosive. You are spreading harmful information.
http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/2030.pdf |
Edited by - Chill on 08/02/2013 02:48:40 |
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Chill
17 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 02:45:45
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To be clear, this is the course this thread took: You helped Hoxsey burn her nose off, this outrageous behaviour was posted to Reddit.com as an example of the failings of a certain way of thinking, we came here from Reddit to try and spread better information. Some couldn't contain their outrage.
You can't even entertain that this might be possible. Instead, you have vague fearful paranoia that we're from the medical industry trying to protect profits. Can you put your pride aside and just maybe consider that you did something terribly wrong here? That may be too hard to do it seems.
I was trying to get a conversation going, but instead you label me a monster who only wants to reap profits from sick people. Great.
I sincerely hope no one else gets disfigured by your terrible advice, and I sincerely hope no one decides to chuck Zinc Chloride on their food seeing as it's so safe according to Horrux. Guys, please, take a step back and look at it calmly. |
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julypanda
Australia
43 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 03:36:03
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Anivoc - well written !!!
Chill - we might have taken a step back and looked at it calmly as you put it, but some people on the link got very personal with their attacks , and like Anivoc says, they have not seen anything like this in 10 years. Just don't attack people for the choices they made.
I have no medical experience at all, however I have used Black Salve. i thought long and hard about all that has been written of late, and yes it is terrible that Hoxsey lost her nose through the process, and you are all claiming that it was "burnt off", but have a good look at how beautifully it has healed. Yes, I know that there is a lot missing, but there was no infection, and the edges are perfect. If this had been "burnt off" as you call it, then wouldn't she look like a burns victim with terrible scarring and redness. Had the nose grown back fully, you would all be singing its praises. However, on this occasion unfortunately it appears that the cancer was more widespread than first thought,
I had a bcc and i removed it successfully. The minute the black salve was applied you could feel it working. I had a couple of suspect lesions on my skin and applied the black salve and absolutely nothing happened - so it does not affect healthy skin.
As Anivoc says, we are simply people who wrote into a forum who are trying alternative treatments for skin cancer.
Please leave it at this now. Go back to your own forum and say what you like, but don't come on here and knock us for wanting to try alternatives |
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Chill
17 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 04:28:32
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This needs to be said again: We don't mind what you do to yourselves, or the choices you make concerning your own health, everyone has the right to choose. We are against you untrained individuals offering advice that might endanger peoples lives.
The others have left already because they've said what they needed to say amd probably realise you will never admit to making an error for some bizarre but understandably human reason. The children who came here swearing didn't help matters, but people are free to say what they want to say and I'm happy that's the case. That's why I like Reddit - diversity of opinion. Just don't lump me in with them, please.
You continue to make assumptions as to how I think about matters, "had the nose grown back fully, you would be singing its praises" - a nose just doesn't grow back, Julypanda. How does a nose grow back?
How can you know for sure, really ask yourself this, how can you know for sure that it simply ate the cancer away and not normal healthy tissue? How can you know this for sure? This is a very, very important question you need to find the answer to. Because you're spreading potentially hazardous information and your pride is getting in the way of admitting it. You don't know for sure.
On that basis alone, uncertainty, you have to see that you cannot give information that might hurt people, Julypanda. This is something you don't want to hear but it needs to be said.
I am not an aweful person, a shill writing this stuff to line the pockets of the medical industry executives as some of you think for some terrible reason. I'm a dude, a normal dude, who read a forum about a lady who had a terrible reaction to some stuff that contained hazardous chemicals, made a terrible choice of coming to this forum for advice instead of a doctor, and suffered terrible consequences. I'm not sure about this stuff, I can admit it, I can also admit that I don't know enough to actually offer advice to someone going through a terrible reaction to it. And you can't live your life distrusting every single doctor. Are they all aweful, crap people July?
Don't tell me to go away just because you can't stand to hear this. Am I making no sense here? |
Edited by - Chill on 08/02/2013 04:34:59 |
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Bwakul
Australia
21 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 05:38:17
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I am not a reddit user but believe that Chill has given a very simple explanation for how and why other posters found this forum. Sorry, no conspiracy.
What bought me here was curiosity. A number of friends had mentioned black salve to me and I was having a look into it. I was open minded about it at first but was shocked when I stumbled on this forum. Not regarding whether it works (it possibly does In some cases) but by some of the outlandish claims without the support of evidence based research and what I viewed as dangerous medical advice being given by those less than qualified to do so. Even a MD would see the ethical issue with giving advice on an online forum without knowing a persons medical history. What if she had circulation issues, a compormised immune system or diabetes? Use of black salve without medical oversight by a long term diabetic or some basic knowledge of how to look after such a serious open wound could be disastrous.
What is frustrating is that when doing your own search on the internet, peer reviwed research published in high rated journals (if it ihas been done) is often hidden behind pay walls and subscriptions. Additionally, negative results are often not published. The general public then finds itself lost and buried beneath the mountain of easily accessible but less descipherable information put out by those marketing the product or by patient testimonials. I don't believe either of those two sources of information is sufficient for me to risk my health.
The fact you keep repeating that Moh's surgery evolved from the use of black salve to a more modern technique is telling to me, but for a diffierent reason. From this fact, I personally reach the conclusion that it was replaced with a more efficient technique or one that caused far less damage to healthy tissue. This is just the conclusion I have reached, I do not know if it is fact, but it does show that two people with the same information can reach very different conclusions. Repeating that fact as "evidence" to support your own conclusions is not so convincing for some of us. We are free to reach our own conclusions and mostly free to make decisions about our health but please think about why some of us felt the need to put a warning sign up in here for others who are "researching" the use of black salve.
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Edited by - Bwakul on 08/02/2013 05:51:06 |
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Horrux
Canada
16 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 11:16:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Chill
we came here because this thread was linked to from Reddit. Are you claiming we're shills? If that's the case then there's no hope for a normal discussion between human beings. Your mind is shut.
Horrux, Zinc Chloride is NOT safe to handle. If you'd like to look up the fact sheets on the chemical you'll clearly see that's it's corrosive. You are spreading harmful information.
http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/2030.pdf
Wow, you seriously lack any knowledge of chemistry, yet you come here with your accusations. This is amazing.
The fact sheet says it's corrosive, true. If you INHALE it, it can make you COUGH. That's bad, right? It's not melting your lungs or anything, it can make you COUGH. That's why you can breathe it in 1mg/m3 concentration without any ill effect.
Zinc Chloride has about the same corrosiveness as acetic acid, which is vinegar. While I'll not be using ZnCl2 solution on my fries instead of vinegar, it is far from the poison you are making it out to be. Javel is a much more powerful corrosive.
So, yes, pure zinc chloride CAN be harmful to use, just as pure acetic acid can cause burns. But guess what, people use vinegar in a lot of things and they're fine. |
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Chill
17 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 12:20:35
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Horrux, what are your credentials in chemistry?
The fact sheet also advises in the case of skin contact, remove all contact and seek medical advice immediately. |
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Chill
17 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 12:37:28
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We're going along a good fact finding mission here, I like it. Acetic acid: it's a component of vinegar - meaning around 8% of vinegar is made up of Acetic acid - not PURE acetic acid as Horrux implied. What percentage of zinc chloride comprises black salve? What's the safety levels, and how can you guys be sure that the black salve you purchase contains a safe amount?
Now just remember, Horrux first stated Zinc Chloride is safe and inert, just like table salt. We've determined it's highly corrosive to skin contact. PURE zinc chloride.
Black salve contains a percentage of zinc chloride. Who's determining what that safe limit is? If I go and buy a black salve, off of amazon for example, how can I be assured that the amount of zinc chloride it contains is at a safe level? |
Edited by - Chill on 08/02/2013 12:43:23 |
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Horrux
Canada
16 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 12:53:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Chill
Horrux, what are your credentials in chemistry?
The fact sheet also advises in the case of skin contact, remove all contact and seek medical advice immediately.
Just some college education. My credentials are of being a biologist and an economist, and thus do not relate directly to chemistry. I also tested 174 on an IQ test, that's a credential too, right? |
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Chill
17 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 13:24:33
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| I think you can be intelligent and misinformed at the same time. Perhaps a high IQ can sometimes be detrimental to your ability to entertain self-doubt. Especially when you haven't mixed with people of a similar or greater level of intelligence on a regular basis, you perhaps get a detrimental sense of superiority. It's not an easy situation to deal with. |
Edited by - Chill on 08/02/2013 13:26:38 |
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Horrux
Canada
16 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 17:16:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Chill
I think you can be intelligent and misinformed at the same time. Perhaps a high IQ can sometimes be detrimental to your ability to entertain self-doubt. Especially when you haven't mixed with people of a similar or greater level of intelligence on a regular basis, you perhaps get a detrimental sense of superiority. It's not an easy situation to deal with.
You are right, it is not. It's like living on a planet of the apes or at least, being perpetually surrounded by morons. But I got over my sense of superiority long ago, for it was a failing. I'm better than that now. :D |
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anivoc
668 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 19:02:48
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Bwakul what outlandish claims are you speaking of? Can you cite one?
I am a moderator here and I try to stay up on current post and delete spam and "sneaky advertising" There are several very active members here who are not shy to call BS when they see it..
No one I know has made any outlandish "claims" and as far as advice ..maybe some have...I personally am happy to give my opinion but ALWAYS say do your own due dilligence..I did...
Guaranteed I know a lot more about Bloodroot than any of the new crew of nay sayers that have come recently...A few years before this site came about I talked to dozen of people around the world who had personally used it...100's of hours or reading accounts and research...hunting down real people with real names and phone numbers and had conversations before ever actually trying it on myself...
I have posted very graphic pictures of my experience and my results..I am real..they are real...
To say it is "crazy as Hell" is ignorant...All procedures come with risk and bloodroot paste is a serious route to take...not something to jump into without understanding the possible consequences..
The tone the 5 aforementioned "new comers" has set is far from informed or realistic...definitely in some cases leaning on out right rude and obnoxious.
If you have genuine sincere questions, opinions, personal experience or valid info bring it on...Broad sweeping, narrow minded assumptions, accusations and conclusions bring nothing to benefit the group here.
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Edited by - anivoc on 08/02/2013 19:03:35 |
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Bwakul
Australia
21 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 20:55:07
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I'm sorry, but you are still using patient testimonials alone as your evidence. No basic science. No pathology. No double blind clinical studies.
Outlandish claims......well pretty much everything written by djt10. And overall, the idea that the black salve has only destroyed cancer cells. This is "possible", but not one of you have any pathology results to state that as fact. You may have got all the cancer (or not). But You really do not know, as you would with MOHs surgery, whether she had healthy tissue destroyed and possibly could have avoided such extensive and expensive plastic surgery.
You've picked up on one word I used and focused in on that but no one will respond to our main point. Do you think it is responsible to give medical advice to someome online, when you are lacking medical training AND know little about that persons medical history (including pathology and any other diagnostic results). ?? |
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Bwakul
Australia
21 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 21:02:09
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As an example, lets look again at the study which looked at survival rates and chemotherapy. The whole 2% thing.
If we relied on patient testimonials there would be 1000's who could claim chemotherapy saved their lives. And maybe it has, or extended their lives substantially. But what that epidemiological study seemed to find was that overall it only improved survival rates by 2 %. |
Edited by - Bwakul on 08/02/2013 21:02:50 |
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anivoc
668 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 21:43:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Bwakul
I'm sorry, but you are still using patient testimonials alone as your evidence. No basic science. No pathology. No double blind clinical studies.
Outlandish claims......well pretty much everything written by djt10. And overall, the idea that the black salve has only destroyed cancer cells. This is "possible", but not one of you have any pathology results to state that as fact. You may have got all the cancer (or not). But You really do not know, as you would with MOHs surgery, whether she had healthy tissue destroyed and possibly could have avoided such extensive and expensive plastic surgery.
You've picked up on one word I used and focused in on that but no one will respond to our main point. Do you think it is responsible to give medical advice to someome online, when you are lacking medical training AND know little about that persons medical history (including pathology and any other diagnostic results). ??
OK I'll bite...
Let's start with the most relevant question first...
"Do you think it is responsible to give medical advice to someome online, when you are lacking medical training AND know little about that persons medical history (including pathology and any other diagnostic results). ?
Absolutely not it would be irresponsible... No one is giving "Medical advice" here we are sharing our personal experiences, strength and hope and knowledge therein that we have personally gained from our personal research and experimentation....
No one here is impersonating or alluding to the idea that they are medically trained doctors...People come here for a multitude of reasons but this is an internet forum and like anything on the net you better check your facts multiple places before jumping off the bridge with your internet made wings...
This particular thread started by Hoxsey starts with her already in deep trouble treating herself asking for advice...not medical advice...personal experience advice. From there on people chimed in with how they dealt with bloodroot.
As Dan states in his purpose for this forum "Welcome! Skin cancer now affects millions of people worldwide, many chronically. There are good reasons to believe that skin cancer can be prevented by diet and nutrition, that natural healing is possible, and that the best treatment may be a home remedy! These forums are for people with skin cancer and others that care to share questions, concerns, ideas, and experiences. We want better answers for skin cancer. We want to hear your story."
What he states is all true...Diet and home remedies may help in the eradication of various forms of the many skin cancers...
I don't know how much you know ...but I think you know a lot less than you think you do...
Most of us here are real common folks with real skin cancers ...It sucks and it sucks way worse than someone that hasn't got them can understand.
We're the ones that have spent thousands of dollars on painful and disfiguring Medical treatments only to have the dang things come back in a few years...Mohs surgery..the gold standard of the dermatologist... is far from perfect and though the best way to treat Basal cell it doesn't always get it all..
There is so much the derms still do not know...
I am one of those that have gone traditional route, spent thousands of dollars and now do my best to avoid them because their ways don't work any better than the alternative ways.
Do you know what Picato gel is?
Lo and behold...it is made from Petty spurge discussed here before Picato was approved by the FDA..
THis place is an awesome resource for thousands of people that are going through the torture mill of FDA approved Effudex..
Trust the doctors? seriously... Effudex is torture
Then there's fluorouracil...I remember in the 80's being told by one derm to treat my whole face...only to be told 15 years later by the same derm ..Oh I no longer recommend fluorouracil they think it might actually cause an increase in skin cancers...Wonderful.
Then there's the Pathology you ask about... There have been no double blind studies ..why you ask...well it is an ugly truth...MONEY
It cost a lot..and there is no one that can patent this so why invest in the test?
From http://www.bevanpotter.com/herbalhistory.html on this complicated dilemma...
What studies have been done by modern medicine to demonstrate that these Black Salves are a proven skin cancer treatment system?
"In the orthodox community this question refers to a "longitudinal, peer-reviewed, double-blind study with carefully monitored control groups, using strict statistics measures..." bla, bla, bla, bla. We believe in the time-honored tradition of empiricism. It is the fundamental principle underlying the development of homeopathic, naturopathic, and herbalist formulas, even entire volumes of formularies (pharmacopoeia), not to mention the healing techniques of dozens of other modalities. A formula is proven to be effective and safe, in our minds, when it has been tested upon thousands of individuals over a period in excess of one century (that's 100 years) and has been found to repeatedly, thousands of times over, cure legions of patients with little or no side effects. Such is the history of escharotics, the illustrious herbal tradition from whose roots Cansema has sprung. It is the foundation of our South American medical herb formulas, and virtually all herb-based products.
The pecularities of modern food and drug law, based as they are on 19th century "atomist" theories on pharmacology, have totally turned the free market on its head - and this is something most people either don't know, or don't take the time to figure out.
The simple fact is, escharotic preparations are not sufficiently proprietary for anyone to get a useful patent on them. No drug company on earth is interested in a compound if they can't get an enforceable patent on it. And why? Because no drug company on earth ---- no, make that no intelligent human being on earth -- would ever invest the $100 million plus it takes to get "drug approval" in the U.S. and other major Western countries without the reasonable assurance a patent provides THAT THEIR INVESTMENT WOULD BE PROTECTED FROM THE ENCROACHMENT OF COMPETITORS!
The fact is, medicine today -- whether you live in Perth, Edinburgh, Nassau, or Los Angeles, is far more about the dynamics of making money, than it is about doing what is best for the patient. Only when you can clearly view this industry from the inside does the intensity of this concept become so solidified and crystal clear that you would no more question it than you would think to doubt the curvature of the Earth.
Like the Mother Goose story about the Emperor who wore no clothes, the masses of those living in Western society live behind the veneer. Only when one stands back and innocently looks at the structure of modern health care for what it is -- only when one takes the time to follow the money trail, can you understand why the very best products on the market have no chance of becoming mainstream if the most powerful interests in health care cannot figure out a way of cornering the market. It can be a "cornering" of short duration (a patent in the U.S., for instance, lasts 17 years), but it must be a turf that can be legally protected, with artificially high margins, for at pre-calculated period of high, sustained profitabilit." Source: Alpha Omega Labs
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Edited by - anivoc on 08/02/2013 21:50:42 |
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anivoc
668 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 21:55:00
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It was a DOCTOR that developed Black Salve.....
Skin Cancer - Black Salve
Around the mid-nineteenth century, Native American herbs became very popular in Europe and a Dr. J.W. Fell, working at Middlesex Hospital in London developed a paste made of bloodroot, zinc chloride, flour, and water. This was directly applied as a paste to a malignant growth and generally destroyed the tumor within two to four weeks.
Bloodroot
Bloodroot (Sanguinarea canadensis) is one of the most beautiful eastern North American woodland herbs and was commonly used to treat cancer by the Native Americans. Since that time it has been identified as a primary ingredient in most escharotic salves and pastes, as these are called, used for the treatment of cancer. The alkaloid, sanguinarine has been indeed found to possess powerful anti-cancer properties.
The Eclectics medical doctors of the 19th century, especially Dr. Eli Jones, specialized in the treatment of cancer emphasizing internal treatment and lifestyle changes but evidently used escharotic Black salves and ointments with success. The late Dr. Raymond Christopher created a Black Ointment drawing salve that contained potent anti-cancer herbs such as poke root and black walnut bark. Many consider this to be only for drawing out slivers and such embedded in the flesh, but in fact, the salve is also used for drawing out cancers and tumors. In recent times various formulas for the salve has been sold or given away by various clandestine individuals who are mostly motivated by the desire to help provide patients with a less invasive and harmful method to remove cancers from various parts of the body.
One of the most startling facts is that the use of escharotics has been and continues to be an accepted and recognized medical procedure. A medical text entitled Chemosurgery: Microscopically controlled Surgery for Skin Cancer was written by Dr. Frederic E. Mohs, B.Sc., M.D. and last published by Charles Thomas in 1978. It uses the same basic escharotic paste used by Eli Jones, Hoxsey, and others for application for topical application for the removal of various cancers, molls, warts and other growths and excrescences. Dr. Mohs was clinical Professor of Surgery at the University of Wisconsin Medical School
However, of the modern researchers, the two most respected and well-known authorities in the use of this approach were Dr. J. Weldon Fell and Frederic E. Mohs, MD, both of the United States.
Fell was a faculty member of New York University and later was one of the founders of the New York Academy of Medicine. In the early 1850s, he moved to London and built up a very successful cancer treatment practice based on escharotic therapy using bloodroot (Sanguinaria canadensis) as the herbal base. He published his results
Frederic Mohs
extensively. We know today that the alkaloids in bloodroot do indeed have a strong anti-tumor effect.
Frederic Mohs called his approach chemosurgery and used a fixative paste. His was more an integrative approach that combined the use of the escharotic paste with surgical tumor removal and analysis, rather than allowing for the sloughing off of the eschar. His contribution is immense as he put the procedure on a very sound, scientific footing, with a tremendous amount of research that spanned decades. The soundness of his approach was underscored in a 1990 report that stated he had a verifiable and documented 99% success rate in his treatment of skin cancers!
As recently as the late 1960's Vipont pharmaceuticals under the name of Vipont Chemical Co. of Fort Collins, Colorado, was formed by a rodeo cowboy named Howard McCrorey and two friends specifically to research and develop the Black salve for FDA approval. At one point they informally sent it off to an investigator of Mayo clinic to be tested for its efficacy in treating cancer. The investigator sent back two letters stating he had not tested anything that even came close to the anti-tumor activity of the Black salve.
In order to keep the company viable they performed various contract work. As a result they brought a toothpaste to market called Viadent which utilized the ingredients of their Black salve to maintain dental hygiene and prevent and cure periodontal disease. It was and still is very effective and the company was eventually bought up by Colgate who is the manufacturer of Viadent.
Besides its topical use, there is a tradition of internal use for cancer and all infectious and inflammatory diseases. Vipont conducted an LD/50 toxicity study of the salve for internal use. It was reported that the LD/50 was around 700mg per kilogram of body weight. Since the recommended dose for internal use is no greater than 250mg, at this level toxicity is very low. However, it should never be taken on an empty stomach as it can be too irritating. The salve can be taken in a 00-sized gelatin capsule as it is taken each day.
Vipont and company has documented the use of the salve for a wide variety of problems, ranging from the removal of warts, moles and skin cancers to other internal cancers, colds, eye problems (diluted in a saline solution, one part salve to 1000 parts water), staff infections, impotency, skin diseases, gastrointestinal inflammations and other conditions too numerous to list. One representative who reported this story and was on the Board of Directors of Vipont Chemical Company, Clark Bigham stated that "my inclination is to try it for just about any known condition other than stomach ulcers and auto-immune diseases." |
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anivoc
668 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 21:58:58
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Wow thanks for pushing ...The net has grown and more old data is available CHECK THIS OUT read it and recognise the truth....
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/60916
Arch Dermatol. 1976 Feb;112(2):211-5.
Chemosurgery for skin cancer: fixed tissue and fresh tissue techniques.
Mohs FE.
Abstract
Complete microscopical control of the excision of cancer of the skin is achieved by removing tissues layer by layer and examining the undersurface of each layer by means of frozen sections. If the cancer is extensive and complicated or if it is of a type readily spread over an excisional surface, the tissues are fixed in situ with zinc chloride prior to excision (chemosurgery, fixed tissue technique). If the cancer is not too extensive or complicated, the tissues are excised in the fresh, unfixed state (chemosurgery, fresh tissue technique). Both techniques are highly reliable; for example, in two consecutive series of basal cell carcinomas treated chemosurgically, the five-year rate of cure was 99.3% for the 9,351 lesions removed by the fixed tissue technique and 97% for the 127 lesions removed by the fresh tissue technique.
So there is the TRUTH in Black and white...disgusting!!!! 9,351 lesions tested... 99.3% cure rate using The hideous Zinc Chloride "Fixed tissue" and 97% cure rate using the "fresh tissue technique" The frozen slices under microscope.....Hmmmm why in the world would the medical community use the lesser successful method? Money doesn't talk it swears...
Rub a little zinc Chloride on the lesion have the patient come back the next day remove all the white tissue... or bring in a specialist and start slicing and dicing ...for hour$$$$ ...take the sample to the technician...he freezes it..slices it real thin then the derms look at it under a microscope for irregular cells..Oops still some bad cells in the margins we have to take some more skin.... Here we go again...this process can take several hours...I know..I've been there done that...I even convinced the Derm to let me meet the technician and watch him freeze and slice my specimen...quite the handy dandy micro meat slicer... and quite the money making machine..The whole procedure that is..
Lets see rub some paste on the lesion, cover it...24 hours later pull off the bandage ..cut away all tissue that has turned white
Total billable hours maybe 1 hour..and no special "technician with a zippy zoomy machine to pay for..AND 99% cure rate..
The Freeze method at minimum 3 to 4 billable hours plus the tech / lab fees and a 97% cure rate...Makes sense to me. Dollars and Cents! ..THose crazy fools using zinc chloride are out of their minds....or maybe they're not...just saying
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Edited by - anivoc on 08/02/2013 23:10:15 |
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cheryl21
Australia
19 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 22:54:53
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Anivoc, I think your posts are great but, unfortunately the recent visitors to this forum aren't really interested in listening to anything that you have to say. They haven't come here to discuss anything, but rather to lecture. There is nothing positive about their posts at all.
To Chill & co. you are talking to people here who have used black salve, ignore what they say, and yet you think you know all about it.
I have had two BCC's and one SCC cut out of my face by plastic surgeons. I was never game to use black salve from the negative reports of it on the internet but finally decided it was worth trying as an alternative to being cut up once again and used it on an SCC on my arm and BCC on my face. I am over the moon with the results and will NEVER go near a doctor to be carved up and mutilated by them again.
You seem to be unaware that every time a doctor cuts out a skin cancer they are not just cutting out the cancerous cells, but also a massive amount of good skin just to be sure they have got it all. Google it on the internet and have a look at just how much healthy skin they cut out - it will just about make you sick. Black salve does not destroy healthy skin, but only the cancerous tissue.
The results from my use of black salve is that it is far less disfiguring than what is achieved by the expert doctors, mainly because of the reconstruction the plastic surgeon has to do from removing such a massive amount of skin and the consequent distortion to your anatomy, particularly in an area that we really care about - such as the face!
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Bwakul
Australia
21 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 23:09:10
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I definitely do not know a lot about skin cancer, nor the modern or alternative treatments for skin cancer. I never claimed to. I stated my major issue. However, I understand that there is a fine line between sharing information and personal experience and offering medical advice. I feel that line was crossed at times. I continue to have a pesonal interest in this area though. My brother just had a BCC removed. He is very young and I am concerned for him. Our neighbour just died of melanoma at age 50 and both my sister in law and mother in law have both had extensive treatment for melanoma quite recently. This is something that affects so many people and I find myself paranoid about any changes to my husbands and my own skin.
I actually do apologise if I have been obnoxious. I think you would be surprised if you were aware of my background and personal situation.
Your post made me laugh a little, as I am the less than enthusiastic audience to these arguments (lectures) pretty much daily from my husband. His whole world view is based around a fixed reference point, that "Government Lies". He is a very intelligent and creative person, but we approach things from a very different angle. I am distrustful of government and corporations but strongly support evidence based medicine.. I am hoping to speak with my sister in law about black salve. She is a naturopath, with an undergrad in science, a doctorate in herbal medicine has lectured both natural medicine snd medical students at a a university. Her thesis was on the use of herbal medicine concurrently with conventional medical practise and she has spent years involved with research into herbal medicine, I think many of you here would find her input of interest ?
After hearing what you have been through, I can definitely understand why my posts have offended you. I have been through similar experiences my entire life with the medical establishment. I have had serious and chronic health problems since I was a child. Incidently, my experience with alternative therapies has also been less than satisfactory, I do support and often encourage people to be their own best advocate when it comes to their health.
I was also the manager of a research lab where our Professor was seen as a radical by the rest of the medical establishment. I disagree with many of the methods and conclusions of my husband and my boss, but I also have a lot of respect for them. I think we need people like them. They are usually extremely creative, and push the boundaries, and this is when we make huge leaps in science. Visionaries are often not so great with the details, and I think great things are possible if these rare people are supported by a team of more detail oriented people. Don't even get me started on the process of clinical trials and dealing with the federal regulatory agency. Or the difficulties of funding and commercialisation. This is what I dealt with daily.
So, no. I do not see everything in black and white. Maybe you could also refrain from the personal attacks. You are just as guilty of this as the "nay-Sayers".
EDIT...
You've added some posts while I was writing this. I've only quickly read through it but I have some questions. I already knew black salve had been used historically, but it would be great if you could find some more research feedback from people like Moh's beyond the 70s. Is he still alive? Why did the chemosurgery progress to current methods? Was it because patients had better cosmetic outcomes and there was more assurances that the cancer was removed? I don't know, I am just asking the question.
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Edited by - Bwakul on 08/02/2013 23:26:49 |
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anivoc
668 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 23:17:33
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No personal attack just pointing out the obvious over 10 years posting here and suddenly 5 people show up blatantly bashing bloodroot all within a few weeks of each other..coincidence...maybe...I just don't know...it was weird at best...Sorry if I offended you...but the comments coming from the "Nay sayers" got several of us who have been there done that a little upset......the only good that came from it was forcing me to take a fresh look for hard evidence..which I stumbled upon today...you like black and white proof...I provided it here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/60916
Slam dunk Zinc Chloride has been tested and proven on over 9000 lesions 99% cure rate...hmmmm |
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Bwakul
Australia
21 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 23:21:38
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See my edit in my last post. Is there anything more current than 40 years ago? And aren't those statistics the same or better for surgery? Possibly with better cosmetic results? Happy to be informed and change my mind on this.
I still don't see the slam dunk on the question of whether it destroys healthy tissue? Which has been my argument all along. I have never argued it doesn't kill cancer tissue.
And I'm sorry, but you did make personal attacks. Equal to or worse than anything I wrote. |
Edited by - Bwakul on 08/02/2013 23:38:04 |
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Bwakul
Australia
21 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2013 : 23:45:40
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quote:
Originally posted by cheryl21
You seem to be unaware that every time a doctor cuts out a skin cancer they are not just cutting out the cancerous cells, but also a massive amount of good skin just to be sure they have got it all. Google it on the internet and have a look at just how much healthy skin they cut out - it will just about make you sick. Black salve does not destroy healthy skin, but only the cancerous tissue.
Most people are aware that surgeons use margins of healthy tissue.
Where is the evidence that black salve does not affect healthy tissue. I think this is the main point of contention. |
Edited by - Bwakul on 08/02/2013 23:46:22 |
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Bwakul
Australia
21 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2013 : 00:07:55
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I'm going to leave you guys alone now, I've just realised you are all dealing with something horrible and Hoxsey has not asked to be "defended". If you're happy with your choices, and the black salve has offered the right answers for you, the best of luck to you. I hope Myself and my family and friends do not have to suffer any more from this horrible condition and I hope the same for you and yours.
If my sister in law (the Dr. And herbalist) has anything interesting to add, I might post that information if it is useful. |
Edited by - Bwakul on 08/03/2013 03:29:38 |
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anivoc
668 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2013 : 02:53:14
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Interestingly I decided to see what was being said on reddit.
I searched bloodroot paste and zinc chloride and found NOTHING linking back to this site...
Chill would you mind sharing the link to the post you are speaking of on reddit that links back to this forum? |
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Bwakul
Australia
21 Posts |
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Chill
17 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2013 : 03:53:27
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Anivoc, I've definitely been offended by the accusations leveled at me. I would like an honest discussion, but it's difficult when the person you're expressing your opposing view to takes that as a personal attack and gets nasty.
Here's something you're not going to like, so just be prepared for it and please understand that I'm not attacking you personally, I'm simply pointing out an error. I don't have an agenda etc. etc. etc.
You've found Moh's 1976 publication. His process with Zinc Chloride was a little different from the process you guys use:
He injected a controlled amount of zinc chloride as a fixative, CUT AWAY the tissue, examined it under a microscope with a very clever plan of determining how much cancer still needed to be cut away. The process required years of training.
His use of Zinc Chloride has been replaced with freezing the excised skin.
Anivoc, honestly ask yourself if this process is equivalent to the process you guys use at home, and that you're allowed to claim the 99% rate as being yours to claim. Doesn't that seem a little disingenuous?
Here's some historical context for you:
http://books.google.co.za/books?id=u_rYwMlRogQC&pg=PA2&lpg=PA2&dq=mohs+inject+zinc+chloride&source=bl&ots=P2Lc4ue6GT&sig=ZzLx0RehFGR72MS69vtO2QewTX0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=msH8Ua_bO4yEhQfNgIH4DQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=mohs%20inject%20zinc%20chloride&f=false
I'm really sorry your argument doesn't work out, and I hope you don't take it personally. Just try and think of it clearly without letting emotional fervour cloud your judgment.
Please guys, if someone comes here with a post asking if severe facial swelling is normal, just tell them to perhaps go see a doctor?
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anivoc
668 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2013 : 03:55:45
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Thanks Bwakul
So basically a bunch of lay people who don't have skin cancer expounding on their ignorance. Really disturbing...reminds me of 12 year old kids ganging up on the weaker ones....
So this is where this all came from...
Only God knows for sure but based on thousands of videos on youtube of people using bloodroot paste I am going to venture an informed guess that had Hoxsey chosen Mohs surgery they would have had to take every bit as much tissue and maybe more...
We'll never know ...There is a minute amount of "bad press" and thousands of real people with real pictures and videos all over the net indicating there are a whole lot of people that have successfully used blood root paste. Using it is not for the faint of heart...
I have personally applied to a non exposed area of my skin for 24 hours with Zero effect on healthy skin...on a basal cell lesion using the same paste WHAM! in minutes of application it was tearing it up..
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Edited by - anivoc on 08/03/2013 03:56:32 |
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anivoc
668 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2013 : 04:19:00
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Chill it appears we have gotten off on the wrong foot...Not all of the people that came here recently were as rude as others nevertheless it put several of us on the defense..
The link you posted is great...
The exact page that comes up when you click on the link says mohs applied a zinc chloride "paste" and that it had to be left overnight causing the patients GREAT pain...later when rushing to do a video he did the frozen tissue thing and decided it was better... I doubt Mohs was "only in it for the money"..He was a courageous medical innovator, the likes that could not operate legally in todays litigious world..
All you have to do is search youtube and bloodroot paste and you will find hundreds of testimonials ...a few from sellers but mostly from people like me and the other people here who came to the conclusion Bloodroot paste was a viable consideration in dealing with our skin cancer lesions...If you browse topical info you will see this site is not JUST Bloodroot but hundreds of approaches to deal with skin cancer...Bloodroot paste and Zinc Chloride are just one tool in a huge toolbox of choices and approaches...
The medical world is not a perfect system and the way it has been set up restricts what doctors like Mohs used to do...add to that the fear of lawsuits and you have a tight bottleneck for progress and experimentation. |
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Bwakul
Australia
21 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2013 : 04:27:24
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I only saw the reddit posts because of the link posted on this forum. It appears that a reddit post will end up with the majority leaning one way or another and differing views get voted or shouted down. It also depends on where something is posted, for example whether it is in the alt-med sub-eddit versus a skeptics sub-reddit.
There were a few comments in there from doctors too...this one for example...which was also posted on this forum.
"I had a fairly young patient once who used "Blood Root Salve" for her breast cancer. Continued to grow until it replaced her whole breast. By the time she came to a real doc, it had invaded the ribs into the pleural cavity & all the breast skin was gone. Necrotic tumor was growing out of her armpit like a cauliflower. It bled & oozed & smelled so horrible that the Hospice House had to kick her out. She was so skinny & the tumor on her chest was just huge sucking up all her nutrients & life. She hurt like hell. She didn't tolerate chemo & antiestrogens didn't do much. As a desperate measure we irradiated it which slowed the bleeding & debulked as much as possible surgically without leaving to much of her heart & lungs exposed. Helped the pain a lot & improved the smell enough that her family could visit."
Source: http://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/1j47pd/woman_chooses_altmed_instead_of_outpatient/cbb45p5
He writes 3 long posts (in yellow) in response to a nurses post which is at the top of the linked page and makes some good points. |
Edited by - Bwakul on 08/03/2013 04:47:00 |
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anivoc
668 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2013 : 04:38:39
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In regards to what we say when someone comes here asking for opinions from others who have EXPERIENCE....why in the world would we not share what we experienced...Do you really think the dermatologist would know how to answer that question better than we could?
Trying to understand your perspective...like we did her a disservice telling her that swelling was normal... it's what happens when you use Blood root paste. She asked, Bonder and I replied
None of us could have known the severity of her situation until she posted pictures later... even then the deed was already done ...getting to a dermatologist at that point would have had no effect on the end result or lessened what was already being eradicated.
As Doctor Larsen explained it to me ...these lesions are undetectable by our immune system...They have a sac or veil around them that hides them...when we apply bloodroot paste it removes the veil and exposes the lesion as an invader..the white blood cells attack and the body expels the invader...
It is not the blood root or zinc chloride that do the killing, it is the white blood cells doing their job... By the time she posted her question their work was done. It was then just a matter of time for the body to eject the dead tissue ala swelling and puss.
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anivoc
668 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2013 : 04:53:29
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I read the link and it is about a woman who used bloodroot paste for a breast cancer...
I chased another link about the down side of Bloodroot paste and it was about a man with melanoma.. Though there are mentions of people beating Melanoma with it...they are questionable and unproven to my knowledge.
For sure Dan ( owner of topical info) makes it clear that the alternative therapies discussed here are for NON MELANOMA "SKIN CANCERS" if you have Melanoma get yourself to your doctor ASAP...Always get suspicious lesions biopsied to confirm they are not Melanoma... |
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Bwakul
Australia
21 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2013 : 05:05:56
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I did read his disclaimer, I had not noticed it at the bottom of the page. Good to see.
It would be good to see an additional warning there for those with a damaged circulatory system. Being a type 1 diabetic of 30 years. The use of something like black salve would be disastrous for me. I form eschers spontaneously from minor damage to my skin and a wound only a couple mm across cam take 6 months to heal. Too bad for me, as I could completely overlook a possible skin cancer as I have several wounds that won't heal at any one time. |
Edited by - Bwakul on 08/03/2013 05:10:42 |
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djt10
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2013 : 13:01:06
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| My black salve formula, and the light salve used with it to draw out toxins and help with the healing process came from a 150-year-old book owned by a chiropractor, so that formula using bloodroot, zinc chloride and flour, was published in the mid-eighteen hundreds, so it obviously wasn't "created" by Dr. Fell. It was published in our county paper in 1981, The Yakima Herald-Republic in a story about a sting operation to "catch" people using it--but the published the full formulas and instructions, so there are people all over this area who have used it including my family since 1986. We do this in private. Most people have been diagnosed with cancer, but don't return to doctors after using it. There is a good deal of information on bloodroot--it's not "caustic or corrosive" to healthy tissue. In fact they've used it in toothpaste. And all anyone has to do is some basic research on zinc chloride to find out it is not corrosive to healthy tissues, the only organic material it breaks down, as I've aleady said, is silk and cellulose, which is closely related to chitin, found in fungal and cancer cell walls, which would explain how it helps to expose cancer cells to the immune system, although there is some research that bloodroot does selectively have an impact on cancer cells. I'm going to post this link again to the medical studies on bloodroot: http://truthquest2.com/cancersalves.htm However, we've used black salve for numerous conditions. |
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Bloodroot / Zinc Chloride Paste / Black Salve
