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agare
17 Posts |
 Posted - 09/06/2015 : 19:36:38
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quote:
Originally posted by BobCA
Hi Agare,
I enjoyed your post because you mentioned Curaderm BEC5 which I was unaware of. I did some research since I am getting very familiar with PS and it mechanisms on cancer cells.
First off, I wanted to clarify that were diagnosed by a biopsy that you have BCC on your face and that your surgeon has advised surgery and not topicals?
I'm going to assume, which is always dangerous, that he is advising surgery because it is maybe a little deeper than surface and because the only clinically approved method to remove 98% of BCC and SCC is surgery. Some derms are now using light treatments with good success but no derm is using a topical, yet.
With that said Curaderm BEC5 shows great promise by killing cancer cells (apoptosis) while leaving normal cells unaffected. However, it is about $120-$150US per tube and it takes twice a day for 8 weeks. In a recent clinical trial 8 weeks 78% people showed success after 8 weeks and further treatment is projected to result in better results. BEC5 kills cancer cells but not not invoke an strong immune response like PS.
Petty Spurge has the active ingredient Ingenol Mebutate. This is is also found in the FDA approved topical called Picato. It is only approved for AK but many users, myself included, have had great results on surface BCC and SCC. It works by also causing cell death but also invokes a stroke immune response further destroying cancer cells. Think of it as chemo with immunotherapy in one does. The real advantage to PS is you only need to use it once a day for 3 days. You can find it growing wild in the Euphorbia Peplus (Petty Spurge) but if you need to buy it as Picato is $900US per treatment.
The other topical, Imiquimod, invokes a strong immune response which attacks the rapidly dividing cells. Cheaper as it is generic now but takes 8-12 weeks to work.
As to you other questions on treating vs surgery; without knowing why your surgeon says surgery is required it is difficult to weigh in. It could be as simple as he can not take the risk by allowing you to self treat and the cancer spreads. The biggest risk for all cancers is that it has metastasized. Scientist are now learning that it is more a function of the type of genetic mutation that causes rapid tumor growth and metastasis than anything else. That is why some prostate cancers stay local and grow slowly while some will metastasize quickly. Your doctor probably wants to make sure he got it all, although that is not 100%, and he can not recommend something that is not yet approved.
Bets of luck, please keep us posted. Bob
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agare
17 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2015 : 19:38:43
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Hi Bob,
Thank you for your detailed reply. Yes, I had a biopsy, and this was the finding:
SPECIMEN:
Right nasolabial area: A 3mm core of skin 2mm deep. Processed whole.
MICROSCOPY:
The section of skin shows invasive nodulocystic aggregates of basaloid tumour cells. The tumour cells have enlarged, hyperchromatic nucei and show palisading of peripheral nuclei. The tumour extends to the deep edge of the specimen.
CONCLUSION:
Right nasolabial area: Nodular basal cell carcinoma.
I was aware of the double action of petty spurge, which is why in my view it should be more effective. However, the Peplin research team are not making any great claims for it. Here is a reply I received from the leader of the research team:
Thanks for you interest. The Ramsey study was mainly superficial BCC (see Table legend and text) (also ref 13), with only 57% CCR; penetration issues may limit effectiveness. The drug is now sold as Picato and licensed for use on actinic keratoses, not BCCs or SCCs.
All the bets Andreas
Andreas Suhrbier | Group Leader
QIMR Berghofer Medical Research Institute
I was aware of the double action of Ingenol Mebutate, and for this reason, I suspect that it is more potent against cancer cells than the extract of eggplant/devil’s apple used in Curaderm. The promoters of Curaderm claim 100% success rate, providing patients apply the cream twice daily for 12 weeks and put up with a good amount of discomfort. In the case of the petty spurge trials, according to one of the patients only a very small amount of the sap was used for three consecutive days, and then for recalcitrant cases, the same one month later. According to another post, Picato is really more dilute than the sap. So, I suspect anything like the same doses of petty spurge sap would work on nodular BCC.
I have access to a plentiful supply of healthy petty spurge, and put three good doses of the sap on the BCC (not my nose, as I wrote in previous post). The result was a horrible looking weeping sore on the fourth day, and is now a large scar. I also have a small scar from one of the band-aids I used to cover it, since I am prone to rashes from the adhesives in these. For this reason, and the conclusion I have come to about the relative potencies of the two treatments, that I have decided not to even try Curaderm. I could not cover the treated area as required.
So, at present I have this ugly scab, plus the smaller scab, which are uncovered. The positive about this is that I can’t feel the lumps that used to be there. I know that these lumps are not the problem. It is the roots being put down underneath that are the real problem and that the sap is unable to get to. However, I suspect that if not all, then most of the cancer cells will be knocked out by this treatment, and there will be less to cut out if I have an operation. However, unless MOHS is used and tests are done to see how many cancer cells there are, which I don’t think is the plan, the fact that there are less cancer cells won’t affect how much the surgeon will cut out. So I am still unsure whether to go ahead with or cancel the proposed operation, perhaps annoying the surgeon (a plastic surgeon) and my doctor.
I have been examining other topical treatments. None of the available approved topical treatments looks as promising as petty spurge. I have read about Imiquimod, and it is clearly slower acting, more painful and prone to had side effects, only treats superficial lesions, and so has no advantages and is very much inferior to petty spurge.
There are other things that are promising, but not properly developed. In Western Australia in 2000, a research team found that tea-tree oil got rid of tumours on the backs of mice. It was combined with another chemical that got it to its target, which is the important thing. I tried using this, along with extra virgin olive oil, crushed garlic and curcumin, all of which have been shown to destroy cancer cells in petri dishes, in the few weeks between getting the results of the biopsy and seeing the surgeon. This concoction might have reduced the length of the BCC from 10 to 9mm, and made the nodules smaller, but I am not sure of this and I think the problem is getting the effective chemicals to the right place. If this could be done, the effective ingredient of olive oil which has been found to kill cancer cells in 30 minutes might be effective, but I don’t know how to get the oil through my skin, and I don’t know whether the chemical is in sufficient concentrations. I have read posts on the efficacy of olive oil, but so far as I can see there is not enough good evidence that it can work, and in the one case where it appeared to work, I suspect it was because the cancer had created an open wound, allowing the good oil to penetrate.
I am a bit annoyed that doctors have not done more research on these potential treatments and what is involved in getting the chemicals to the proper place, since skin cancers should provide an ideal place to study cancer, being more accessible than anywhere else. I think it odd that there has not been a follow up on the tea-tree oil. I suppose the medical profession have made some important advances in the treatment of cancer, but I suspect research is being held up by the bureucratisation of medical research.
So, I am still trying to make up my mind what to do. Agare
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BobCA
43 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2015 : 20:30:04
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Hi Agare,
There are two things in play here: One is the homeopathic use that has been in use for a long time and the usage has been passed on via word of mouth, the second is the tested clinical use substantiated with data. I have read on this forum that people have used PS for many things in many different ways. Not everything is how Picato is recommended. For example, covering of PS is not recommended while covering of Curaderm is.
What I like to do is use it based on the clinical evidence. Clinical evidence shows that for treatment of BCC it had a 57% effectiveness but on AKs it was much much higher so it is approved for AKs. Now the same cells structure is found on BCC and SCCs and we know it works on these cancers but well does it work, how deep can it go? I still contend that your doctor and surgeon are just being extra cautious because of the 57% effective rate and because yours is deeper than superficial. You might have used it and you might have got all the cancer. If you had that strong a reaction you probably did but what if you didn't? Could it come back, will it metastasize? Since it is BCC unlikely it would metastasize but it could come back.
My recommendation, and I'm not a doctor, is to inform your doctor what you have done so far and see if he wants to proceed or wait and see. If you used PS it will be healed in a week or 10 days. It might make it more difficult for the surgeon because he may not know where the main lesion was. I'm sure he doing MOHs as it is on your face. He could perform another biopsy to see what he finds? I've gone that route with my dermatologist but only with AKs. If I have a biopsy and it is either SCC or BCC I have had it cut out. Although is is now using light therapy with 98% cure rates.
I still think its best if you come clean with your derm and discuss options, risks, and concerns.
Best, Bob |
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agare
17 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2015 : 04:26:21
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Hi Bob,
That sounds like good advice, which I will follow. Thanks. I will post the final results in case others are interested. Agare
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agare
17 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2015 : 05:19:16
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Hi Bob,
Just to update you and anyone else on my experiences. The scabs formed from my first PS treatment dropped off surprisingly quickly, in less than a week, and I found the nodules were still there. This, along with careful reading of people’s experiences, not receiving a reply to my email to mrosen suggesting that nodular BC is resistant to treatment and reading what sounded like a horror story from Marsha attempting to treat her nose and eventually giving up on PS, and then visiting another doctor who confirmed the high regard with which the surgeon was held, led me to conclude that I had better go ahead with the operation, despite finding that overall it was going to cost me about $4000. However, I decided that I had time to put in another round of treatment with PS to ensure that cancer cells around the nodules would be minimized, reducing the margin required. I applied some heavy doses. With the last dose I broke off a major branch of a plant to get as much sap as I could, and then for good measure, broke of another major branch and applied this as well. The result was a painful face. With some help, the scabs were off in time for the operation five days later, although a bit inflamed. When I went to the hospital and was ready to be wheeled into the operating theatre the surgeon took one look at me and cancelled the operation for a week until the inflammation has subsided. I stopped using the sap, and to my surprise the nodules were only very slightly smaller. The top one, from which a biopsy had been taken, was clearly smaller, but the bottom one seemed the same size. To avoid self-deception I carefully measured the length of the overall raised area containing the two nodules. I think from when I started applying stuff to it (before I started using PS, to just before the operation it was reduced from 10mm to 8mm. A week later I had the operation, which included using a flap to cover the incision. It was not a a MOHS operation, and the surgeon said there would be a 5% chance of a recurrence. Attending his surgery today, a week after the operation, he said the study of what had been cut out (18mm x 17mm x 6mm deep) showed that there were no cancer cells left, but they were within 0.2mm from the bottom of what had been taken out. The sides were all clear, so it is likely the PS did its job here. Because of the 0.2mm clearance the surgeon estimated the likelihood of a recurrence at 12%. He had cut right down to the muscle, so if there is a recurrence it will come from the muscle. I think this could make things difficult, and I suspect that it is when the cancer gets into muscle or cartilage, or worse, into bone, that it is a huge problem. I suspect this is why Marsha had so much difficulty with her nose, and why PS applied day after day, following SoFl’s advice, just produced a big sore. I think it must be in her cartilage, and she was damaging as many good cells and cancer cells, perhaps more with the PS sap.
In the meantime I have done a great deal of research. I think SoFi’s case, and others, indicates that PS will work with all superficial skin cancers (apart from Melanoma, which is never superficial anyway). You could follow SoFi’s advice, but just applying the sap for three days, letting the scab form and drop off, then doing this once or twice again for good measure, should work. I would follow up because a resurgence means that the cancer cells have been active under the skin and spreading, and this is why a recurrence can be worse than the original, so best not to take chances. The most problematic BCs are morpheoic, since these are the most invasive. I think PC might also work with these, and SoFl’s approach might be more reliable. Where it is really difficult is where it is nodular or cystic, or both, and perhaps all cystic BCs are really nodular. Here the cells have defended themselves against the BC sap. And if this is above a morpheoic development, that is invasive, which I gather mine was, and it is in a sensitive place such as the naso-labial area, or near an eye or on one’s nose, cutting it out might be the best option, although I still think it is a good idea to use PS first to kill surrounding cancer cells. Unfortunately, surgeons are unlikely to take a smaller margin because of what has been done.
Elsewhere, on one’s limbs or trunk, there is room for experimentation. Marsha was a surprising case. I think if one followed SoFi’s advice and used PS like Curederm, continually applying it along with some moisturizing cream (I used tea-tree oil cream towards the end of my treatment on the assumption that this would get more of the PS through my skin, and the tea-tree oil has also been shown to kill cancer cells and could give the PS sap some help) and covering it with something – best micropore tape, then even an invasive cystic nodular BC would eventually succumb, although in some cases, like mine and unlike SoFl’s, it might involve enduring some pain. One could experiment by adding DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) gel to get more PS through the skin. I would try this, although I would expect it to be more painful. Where one’s face anywhere near one’s eyes or nose or mouth, is concerned, things are a bit different. I thought Curederm might work if one could put up with using it for up to 12 weeks or more, but this did not work for Marsha which is one reason why I did not try it.
I don’t intend to count on my luck and hope that I am not one of the 12% who has a recurrence. I will treat the area to reduce the likelihood of a recurrence, and have been doing an enormous amount of research. What I look for is people’s accounts of their own experience and also scientific papers where there are any. I am still interested in tea-tree oil and emailed the lead experimenter. She said they did not go beyond the early stages using mice with cancers on their backs because of funding issues and problems with intellectual property rights. She clarified what had been applied. It was a solution of 10% tea tree oil with 90% DMSO. They did reduce tumours together, but neither did when used in isolation. The DMSO would get the active chemicals to the site, and from what I have read, would be far gentler than petty spurge sap or Curaderm (or Sunspot or aubergine soaked in apple cider vinegar, which involves the same chemical), which is gentler than PS from what I have read. I think this is really worth experimenting with. However, I also came across good evidence, including a scientific paper, that showed frankincense oil applied several times a day for a long period – four months or more, can cure skin cancers, without redness, swelling, erupting sores or whatever, and this is what I will use. As a volatile oil I assume this would have very good penetration, although it clearly works far more slowly than PS, or even Curaderm. It requires patience. Putting on olive oil (early harvest extra virgin oil, just in case this also works on skin cancer cells as it does with other cancer cells – colon and breast cancer cells for instance, would be a good choice) and can get through the skin with the help of the frankincense oil. Alternatively, I might use my tea-tree oil (5%) cream.
I could go on for a long time, pointing to what I concluded were dead-ends, but won’t. I think thyme oil also works, but from what I have read, not as well as frankincense. Baking soda mixed with coconut oil works on the surface, but does not penetrate and so tends to result in recurrences. It might be good to start with and then go on to something more aggressive and painful. It is interesting that SoFl, the success story with PS, was writing on another website before this one about using aubergine, and clearly found PS much more effective. I think this is worth knowing. Ginger and garlic might work, but there is no convincing evidence that just putting them on your skin is going to cure you. Other treatments I have found unconvincing. Orange oil, for instance, might kill cancer cells because it kills all cells, but it is also mildly carcinogenic. The same with vinegar. Apart from being curious about the potential of the right kind of olive oil with DMSO or some other means of getting it through the skin, I have not been convinced by any other proposed remedy. Agare.
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BobCA
43 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2015 : 09:27:39
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Agare, thanks for the detailed post and glad to hear you are doing well. I find it very interesting the the PS didn't get all the cancer.
A couple of questions:
Did your doctors tell you that BCC can metastasize in muscle or did you deduce that yourself? Since muscle cells don't undergo mitosis as rapidly as say bone marrow I would be surprised if an offshoot of your lesion would start a new tumor in a muscle.
I am surprised your surgeon did not use MOHS technique given the location of the lesion. Where do you live? If the surgeon had used MOHS he would have only taken as much tissue as required so you pre-treatment with PS would have save you some margin skin.
All in all it sounds like you did the right thing. Treating AKs and superficial SCC and BCC sounds doable but any cancer that had gone deeper should be treated professionally. Not worth the risk until we know more. |
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waverider
76 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2015 : 15:55:18
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| I would be hesitant about using DMSO to enhance absorption of petty spurge. DMSO is a wood solvent. I'm not sure (maybe someone else is, and can tell us) whether or not it might somehow chemically react with, or otherwise neutralize the natural chemotherapeutic effect of PS active ingredients. If I had a BCC or SCC outbreak that I really wanted to knock out — versus something I just wanted to experiment with — I think I'd just stick with the pure natural sap and not get fancy. Use staged, multiple re-applications separated by idle healing time if necessary. |
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agare
17 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2015 : 21:38:28
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Hi Bob and waverider,
The surgeon said that the BC sends out roots, and that these could get into cartilage or into the joins in one's skull. It was my inference that the BC tumor could enter the muscle. It would not alter the muscle cells as such, but they would be penetrated by the BC cancer cells, just as the cancer cells protrude from the surface. MOHS surgery was developed in USA. I discussed this with the surgeon, who as a plastic surgeon said it was not something he could do. He would not know how to get the samples checked,and I guess would not want to spend half a day or more involved in this procedure. My operation took half an hour. I am in Australia, by the way.
One thing I left out of viable treatments in my earlier email was vitamin C. This appears to work, and its mechanism is understood. Some people said it could be excruciatingly painful, while others got good results. It involves putting on a concentrated solution of vitamin C. This has to be done frequently, and the solution does not penetrate deeply, so it is similar but not as good as petty spurge as far as I can tell.
Another promising substance is extract of sweet wormwood, but I found nothing on efforts to use this on skin cancer. Mostly it focussed on breast cancer, and best results are had by taking iron supplements along with the sweet wormwood. The active ingredient is not in the oil, and I guess it might be difficult to get this to the skin cancer cells. However, it seems to kill cancer cells at far higher ratio than most other treatments, and when combined with iron is 100% effective.
On DMSO, this works when combined with tea tree oil. Also, someone spoke of an exchange he had had with Dr Bill Cham who developed Curaderm, saying this turbocharges Curaderm. So in these cases DMSO does not destroy the active ingredient. I contacted the people from Curaderm suggesting that I use DMSO with Curaderm on my face, and was advised just to use the Curaderm (after they had contacted Dr Cham). DMSO might react and neutralize petty spurge, but this can't be assumed. My guess is that DMSO can be dangerous on one's face because there it it so much more complicated than elsewhere, and it could allow chemicals to get where they should not be, for instance, into one's brain. If I got a nodular BC elswhere I would be inclined to experiment with this.
I think the frankincense option is important to consider, and it is something that might work with Marsha, or anyone who has a difficult BC on their nose. It would require patience, but if one were to work at it, applying it a few times a day for six months, it might do the trick. The trouble is that there is a cult of essential oils leading people to dismiss these, ignoring the cases where they do actually work. Improving penetration is still a problem. The essential oils people talk about carrier oils, such as almond oil, grapeseed oil, or appricot kernal oil. These might function like a mild form of DMSO, but they might not. Tea tree oil is very thin, but according to the research, it does not work by itself.
Agare |
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waverider
76 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2015 : 06:31:19
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I certainly agree with the use of DMSO with vitamin C. I actually think it's pretty much *required* as the molecules of ascorbic acid don't penetrate particularly well. When I used the "C" method without DMSO I would always tend to get fast-acting clearance on the surface, followed by unstable scabbing over. Yet deeper effectiveness was problematic. Second to petty spurge, Vitamin C with DMSO may be the best DIY option available. As you say, the mechanism is well understood and positive results are too widely reported to be simply dismissed as random quirks.
I think Mohs is vastly over-sold in the US, often pushed even when cosmetic issues aren't involved. The simpler procedure you got is just as good and certainly less expensive. But it isn't the driver of profits like Mohs is. |
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agare
17 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2015 : 22:31:29
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Just an addition to my previous message, the scientific study of frankincense can be found here: http://www.oapublishinglondon.com/article/656. I think this important because it is very simple, just putting in on a few times a day, where those promoting essential oils generally call for such complex approaches that people are likely to give up. Also, this shows conclusively that it works. I think it might be particularly valuable for use on one's face.
Apart from this, I would like to endorse waverider's suggestions for treating difficult skin cancers with petty spurge, especially when not on one's face.I think that it should be possible to cure the most difficult cases where sensitive areas such as the nose (as in Marsha's case) are not involved. It could be that one needs to judge the right amount to use. If one uses too much, too many good cells suffer, whereas a lower concentration might not damage these cells but still work on the cancer cells.Anyway, using petty spurge sap, leaving breaks for the skin to heal, using it again etc. should be the way to go. I think one should do this a couple of times even after the skin cancer seems to be healed to make sure that one has got it all.
This conclusion has been reached after reading a great deal on these websites, noting that waverider has long been a participant and so is in a good position to judge. Also, thank you waverider for continuing to participate, since you are providing judgements that are, by virtue of your long involvement, more reliable.
Agare |
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agare
17 Posts |
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mrjay
4 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2015 : 09:05:59
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New here and quite impressed with the information on this site.
Hoping to find some plants, I went out for a run/walk yesterday morning on one of the local trails where I suspected I could find petty spurge, and since the wild anise is in seed now I was really hoping to pluck some petty spurge with seed pods. I am sure I've seen it in the area in years past but the drought in So Cal has changed things a bit. About 50 feet uphill from the stream, I finally saw 4 or 5 young petty spurge plants ranging from 4"-8" tall.
I plucked a small branch and applied a 1.5mm drop of the sap to a 5mm AK on my arm and continued on with my run.
After lunch, I went back with a plastic baggy and pulled one of the plants to take home. Since it came up with the roots, I put it in moist potting soil and hope it will take root.
After potting it, I pulled one lower leaf. The stem produced a 1.5mm ball of sap that I collected with a flat dental tool and put that drop on the 5mm AK, using the tool to massage it in for a few seconds. This morning, the AK is red and slightly swollen, I cleaned it with soap/water and peroxide before plucking one more leaf from the little plant. This time, the sap ball was half the size, so I'll leave this little potted plant alone. I'm off work this week and will go back to the trails today to search for more plants and get another treatment right on the trail. Worst comes to worst, I will pluck one more of the small plants to take home and create a tincture so I can finish off this one small AK. If this successfully removes the AK and the little PS plant survives in the pot, I have two 10mm spots on my back to treat with PS.
Below is a pic of the petty spurge in the baggy and freshly potted.
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mrjay
4 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2015 : 23:38:59
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| whoops, double post |
Edited by - mrjay on 11/10/2015 23:46:27 |
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mrjay
4 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2015 : 23:45:11
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Day 2 of my PS treatment for the small (5mm dia) AK. I applied sap from my freshly potted plant this morning and then went out to the trails to find more. No luck after walking several miles of other trails.
So, I went back to the patch I found yesterday and applied one more small drop of sap to the AK and took a tiny 4" tall plant home in a baggy that I am keeping in the fridge. After showering this evening, I applied another small drop of sap from that specimin.
This AK started out as a 5mm diameter dry spot and it lit up a bright red after I had been alternating vit C and a ACV/eggplant solution on it and another AK for several days. I was doing the same with a larger AK on top of my wrist that had minimal reaction to that same treatment. I am now treating that one by rubbing in a mix of vit E/vit A/selenium along with a bit of coconut oil.
With 2 days of applying PS sap, the 5mm AK is now slightly blistered and an area of about 15mm diameter is slightly swollen, with the 5mm blister being in the center of that. I plan to apply PS sap again tomorrow, morning/mid-day/evening, and again the following day if my plant specimen holds out.
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mrjay
4 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2015 : 15:49:49
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It is now day 5.
The PS plant that I transplanted from the wild on day 1 seems to be doing OK, as it produced 1.5mm drop of sap when I pulled a leaf off the main branch for my final treatment yesterday.
I never had pain or itching from the PS sap, which I applied twice or 3 times per day to the 5mm diameter AK for 3 days and once on the morning of the 4th day.
This 5mm AK got red and swollen on day 2, blistered up on day 3, the blister was dry on the morning of day 4 and applying a drop of sap had no noticeable effect; on Day 5 the 5mm spot is now a yellowish scab in the middle of a 12mm diameter red spot. |
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waverider
76 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2015 : 08:41:35
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That description sounds like the typical progression. My general rule of thumb is three to five days of application, then give it a rest and see how it heals up. You can always go back and hit it again.
Congrats on finding PS growing wild in SoCal. Several years ago when I first got into this, I actually hiked into various areas around here where PS had been observed, according to a map of SoCal rare plants. Never could find any in the wild at the time, so I gave up and ordered seeds from AUS. Later, I was doing some work at a house up in the hills during a cold, rainy February. In the backyard (among lots of weeds and discarded junk) there was practically a forest of petty spurge growing. So, you never know .... |
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srains99
13 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2015 : 09:11:05
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| Agree with waverider. Let the scab fall of on its own. Very hard to do when it itches and starts coming off. |
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timmygyu
4 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2015 : 13:04:13
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I have a few petty spurge in my garden, and one scrawny plant inside. Suddenly, I'm not getting milky sap out of any of them. All I get is a little clear fluid, not enough to harvest. Why would this be?
I harvested some for several days, ending about 3 days ago. We had a cold spell after that, though it's not the first cold spell of the season. My plants are still green, though the stalks on the outdoor plants are starting to turn a little reddish. The indoor plants are not nearly as mature as the outdoor plants -- just starting to flower -- and, obviously, are in a more temperate enviroment.
Has anyone seen this before? If so, is this a seasonal thing, or related to the lifecycle of the plants? |
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waverider
76 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2015 : 18:38:52
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I associate that clear fluid with a plant that's in the end stage of its life cycle. I don't know how old your PS plants are, but in the past whenever mine have entered the terminal phase they have that clear liquid instead of milky sap and then they die. Here in CA, PS is definitely a winter annual and doesn't stand the summer heat well. Now is the beginning of the optimum growing season. I have a couple of really beautiful new PS plants taking off. However, several others that I planted too early sprouted during the heat of the summer—then hit an extreme heat wave in Sept.—and now they appear very stunted. I doubt they will thrive.
One thing you can do with a PS plant that's past its prime and you expect to lose is cut up the leaves and stalk and put them all together into a small glass bottle with just a little distilled water. Then use something to pulverize the leaves and stalk and water together into a tincture of smashed-up plant and watery residual sap that leeches out of the leaves and plant fibers. Leave the mixture together in the bottle to "brew" and keep it in the refrigerator. Tincture is unpredictable: I have made some that came out extremely strong and had great results while another batch was only semi-potent. The tincture process is well described by others earlier in this thread. Only other thing I can advise is to plant some more now if you're in N. America as this is the best season. If you get hard freezes you may have to keep it indoors. |
Edited by - waverider on 11/23/2015 18:46:15 |
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timmygyu
4 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2015 : 01:35:17
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Thanks for the thoughtful, informative reply waverider. Sorry for not responding sooner.
I am going to try the tincture idea as the condition of the plants doesn't seem to be changing. I would like to plant some more, but I'm out of my Australian seeds, and my plants aren't quite mature enough yet for the seeds to viable, so it will be a week or two until I plant some. I'm in southern illinois, we usually get a few days of really cold weather (<10 Fahrenheit) every year, so I'll probably have to grow them indoors. |
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mrjay
4 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2015 : 17:21:11
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The Petty Spurge plant that I transplanted from the wild on November 10 is still surviving.
The spot on my arm that I treated with PS sap has healed and the skin at that location looks normal. It has no reaction to orange oil, whereas it stung a bit when I put orange oil on it prior to using the PS sap on it. |
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waverider
76 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2015 : 08:20:09
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Thanks for updating. Another score for PS.
When people say "I'm trying this or that" and then are never heard from again here, the assumption is often that the treatment did not work. It's important to hear when it does work (as well as when it doesn't.) |
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judo
33 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2015 : 08:37:56
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Since May this year I have used PS again twice on the offending item on my scalp. It always reacts and I always give it three days of once a day treatment, then a week or so later the scab comes off and each time it has looked better but always seems to keep itching and scabs again, albeit smaller a week or so later.
I had it diagnosed by a derm but there was never a biopsy done and I'm at a bit of a loss with it now. Should I keep using PS until it stops coming back? I actually made an appointment with another Dr I'm that fed up with it but I'm reluctant to go because I don't trust them! |
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BobCA
43 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2015 : 08:56:03
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| The only way to know for sure what you have is to have a biopsy. I would see another derm and ask for a biopsy. Don't know why that would an issue unless he feels he's not going to get paid. |
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judo
33 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2015 : 08:59:50
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Thanks Bob - it's NHS so payment isn't an issue. The last one I saw stuck his thumb nail into it to diagnose it as AK. Hesitant to return because he actually made it worse!
I'm now with a different Dr so hopefully will be a better outcome.
Many thanks. |
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anivoc
668 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2016 : 11:16:30
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Hi Judo,
I was following your journey with Iodine...you quit posting in that thread..
Please share your final thoughts on Iodine and what your end result was with the one you were treating...if you took pictures that would be great for you to share also..
Thanks,
Tom |
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judo
33 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2016 : 00:43:18
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Hi Tom,
No picture that I can find I'm afraid but it was a messy time. Luckily the patch of skin was on the back of my neck so I could hide it to some extent. The iodine didn't work for me although I did give it a good go, treating plenty of times each day for the recommended periods. It did scan as described but never disappeared.
For this reason, and the fact we have it growing wild in our garden, I decided to try Petty Spurge. The results with PS are much faster but after time the patch of skin has flared up again, then I treat it again for 3 days and it goes away for another couple of months.
Obviously I want to be rid of these things if possible and I'm a firm believer that what we put into our bodies has a big effect overall. With the lack of permanent solution from the topical therapies, I have decided to see a Naturopath next week to have my diet looked at and my vitamin levels, amongst other things checked. I believe I have a systemic yeast infection/candida and I am aware that this can mimic all sorts of other conditions, so if I can get this under control then I might be on the right track.
I'll report back and let everyone know how I get on. Best of luck with your own treatments.
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judo
33 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2016 : 00:45:23
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| Sorry, 'scan' should be 'treat', in the first paragraph |
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Madame
4 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2016 : 12:02:24
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| Hi, I'm new here, but have been reading this topic with great interest. I am wondering if there is anyone out there that has been able to find petty spurge in southern Louisiana. The map that someone provided shows that it grows in Terrebonne Parish, but I am wondering if anyone has had any luck finding PS in Louisiana. Any help would be much appreciated! I have a friend with a very large BCC on his face that I am trying to help... |
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Madame
4 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2016 : 09:38:08
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| If anyone has seeds that they could send me, please email me so we can make arrangements. Thanks! |
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IanL
7 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2016 : 07:20:11
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Hi There,
I am new to this forum so if this has been covered before, apologies.
There are several suppliers of Petty Spurge in Australia and I know they will happily ship to the U.S. I'm an avid user of the sap from the plant and have successfully treated myself for several years now. Here are some links. Hope this helps.
http://www.bodyplantsaus.com/ *Also sell on ebay & amazon
http://fairdinkumseeds.com/
http://www.radiumweed.com.au/ *Have written an ebook on the plant
quote:
Originally posted by Madame
If anyone has seeds that they could send me, please email me so we can make arrangements. Thanks!
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Madame
4 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2016 : 09:05:52
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| Thanks for the info IanL. Someone is sending me seeds... |
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IanL
7 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2016 : 20:40:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Madame
Thanks for the info IanL. Someone is sending me seeds...
Hi Madame,
How did you go growing the seeds? One thing I have found (and, hopefully your seed supplier warned you) is watch where you use the sap. I was careless enough to treat a basal cell carcinoma above my eyebrow over summer and the sweat on my brow managed to move some of the sap to top of my eye (albeit somewhat diluted at that stage). Apart from the immediate pain, I risked the threat of temporary blindness, not a particularly smart move on my part. I will be rethinking how I use this treatment when it comes to facial lesions. The carcinoma is gone by the way! |
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BobCA
43 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2016 : 20:53:15
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My yard in Northern CA is full of plants but I never have much luck in transplanting them and growing in pots. I'm curios to hear from others their experience. I wish I knew a way to get live plants to people, I literally have hundreds.
Regarding facial lesions: I strongly recommend treating once per day, right before bedtime, for 3 days. That will prevent sweating into other areas and your eyes are closed as well. Any longer than 3 days and you risk the IM attacking normal cells that are rapidly dividing healthy cells to heal the dead cells created by the IM.
All the best. |
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IanL
7 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2016 : 21:45:58
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quote:
Originally posted by BobCA
My yard in Northern CA is full of plants but I never have much luck in transplanting them and growing in pots. I'm curios to hear from others their experience. I wish I knew a way to get live plants to people, I literally have hundreds.
Regarding facial lesions: I strongly recommend treating once per day, right before bedtime, for 3 days. That will prevent sweating into other areas and your eyes are closed as well. Any longer than 3 days and you risk the IM attacking normal cells that are rapidly dividing healthy cells to heal the dead cells created by the IM.
All the best.
Thanks for that BobCA. Yes, I have also found that 3 treatments (one per day) is max and have never had to go beyond that. I'll take your advice on the late evening schedule. That would definitely be a safer approach.
I've had mixed results transplanting from garden to pot. Find that they tend to suffer from shock initially but then come good after a few days. I take 2-3 plants together and as much of the root and surrounding dirt as possible (usually use an old spoon as garden spades too big for the job) and then leave them in the exact same area for a few days (in the pots). Also use the widest vessels I can find to allow for self seeding. Have probably only had about a 50% survival rate with this approach which is not great, but something at least.
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Madame
4 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2016 : 16:48:16
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quote:
Originally posted by IanL
quote:
Originally posted by Madame
Thanks for the info IanL. Someone is sending me seeds...
Hi Madame,
How did you go growing the seeds? One thing I have found (and, hopefully your seed supplier warned you) is watch where you use the sap. I was careless enough to treat a basal cell carcinoma above my eyebrow over summer and the sweat on my brow managed to move some of the sap to top of my eye (albeit somewhat diluted at that stage). Apart from the immediate pain, I risked the threat of temporary blindness, not a particularly smart move on my part. I will be rethinking how I use this treatment when it comes to facial lesions. The carcinoma is gone by the way!
IanL, funny you should ask. My seeds grew well, and just started treatment on my friend yesterday. Ironically, his BCC is just above the eyebrow like yours. Actually starts a bit below the eyebrow and extends back to his temple. It's very large. He did not put much sap on yesterday, and did not have much of a reaction. Today, he put a large dose on, so we shall see what happens. I had already warned him about getting any in his eye, but I passed along your warning as well. Thanks! I'll keep you posted... |
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IanL
7 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2016 : 21:44:23
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| Good luck with that Madame. That method (and approach) that BobCA suggested in his last post seems to be the best way to deal with treating facial lesions. Getting this stuff in the eye is a truly painful experience. Despite the risks involved I'm a firm believer that Petty Spurge sap has kept my BCC's under control and sure beats the surgical alternative! I still have those scars all over my body and don't wish to go down that path again! |
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KMWS
18 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2016 : 16:55:28
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quote:
Originally posted by mikE1
Hi Everyone:
I've been away from the forum for a few months, but back in circulation now. My Petty Spurge plants are doing well and I've saved enough seed to provide for anyone who needs some. I've had a BCC about the size of a nickel on my nose for over a year. Another one the size of a quarter on my RH forehead for over two years. Nothing I've tried has had much effect on either of these until now. My nose is completely cleared up, (praise the Lord!) and my forehead is well on the way to being cleared up. I thank God for His wisdom in leading to me to this wonderful answer to a terrible scourge and I recommend it for anyone with BCC. It simply works! The seeds themselves are very tiny. Once germinated, they don't seem to need much care. The plants do not like extreme heat or cold. When mature, they form tiny flowers and seed pods. I will always keep some seed available for this remarkable plant which has done so much for me.
I am new and this site wouldn't allow me to email you so I'm posting to see if you still have any PS seeds available??? If so please send me an email and I will send you my address. Thanks in advance!
I haven't received a reply from mikE1 to my request for some Petty Spurge seeds so I am adding this request: If anyone has any extra Petty Spurge seeds that they can send me I would appreciate it if they would either reply to this post or send me a private email and I will reply with my address. Thanks ever so much!
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Edited by - KMWS on 05/12/2016 12:13:49 |
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waverider
76 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2016 : 15:40:06
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Hi KMWS:
It seems like you've already read thru this thread but... just in case you missed it: You can buy seeds from Australian sources that are listed above in the thread. They don't take all that long to get here to the US, two to three weeks. Just wanted to make sure you're aware of this so you don't feel like there aren't any alternatives. |
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KMWS
18 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2016 : 15:54:09
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quote:
Originally posted by waverider
Hi KMWS:
It seems like you've already read thru this thread but... just in case you missed it: You can buy seeds from Australian sources that are listed above in the thread. They don't take all that long to get here to the US, two to three weeks. Just wanted to make sure you're aware of this so you don't feel like there aren't any alternatives.
I did order some seeds but the Post Office smashed them with their machines so they are totally worthless??? I was hoping that someone on this website would have some seeds and would package them in a padded envelope (as someone else suggested because of the same problem) for me so they don't get destroyed. I didn't want to spend more money ordering from Australia and have the same thing happen wasting my money.
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IanL
7 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2016 : 05:09:05
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Hi KMWS,
These guys were one of the suppliers I previously listed and they claim to send their seeds in padded envelopes so they shouldn't suffer from Post Office mishandling. See: http://www.bodyplantsaus.com/order-seed-seedlings.html
I have a friend in Florida that ordered through them and the seeds arrived in good order. Hoping that's not who you used originally? Failing that, are there any suppliers in the US? I saw one recently advertising on ebay though I'm not sure if that was an individual or a business but they should be the same thing as the plant is obviously not native to Australia. I would send you some from here but not sure how to package safely and fear they may suffer the same fate!
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KMWS
18 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2016 : 11:20:22
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Thanks IanL for the info.
I thought Petty Spurge was native to Australia???
Do you know where Petty Spurge is native to? |
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waverider
76 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2016 : 12:12:02
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| Native to Europe but specifically believed to have originated in the British Isles. When you grow it here in US you can see how it likes that UK-type climate -- long cool seasons, damp, partly cloudy type weather, etc. Probably got to Australia via large waves of immigration from Britain. |
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waverider
76 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2016 : 12:28:39
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| Also, KMWS, are you familiar with how tiny those PS seeds actually are -- even intact? Most photos online are greatly magnified. If you still have your smashed shipment you might want to examine what's left to see if some of them are actually intact. You would probably need a magnifying glass (I would, at least!) to examine the tiny pieces and tell if it's a broken fragment .... or still a viable, intact seed. They're so small some of them might have survived the smashing machine at the P.O. |
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KMWS
18 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2016 : 13:01:16
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I did look as my smashed seeds with a magnifying glass and all of them were so close together that all of them were obviously smashed, but I still tried planting just in-case and none of them germinated??? I have a green thumb so I figured that the seeds were destroyed during shipping.
I was hoping that someone on this site will have some extra seeds to help me get started with my own Petty Spurge plants. |
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Petty Spurge Herb sap for skin cancers
