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Bwakul

Australia
21 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2013 :  22:34:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by djt10

Isn't it interesting that "alternative medicine haters" have found and targeted this site. I've been doing research and writing, specifically featuring government statistics, since 1979. I wish I had more time to spend here, but arguing with people like these is not a productive use of time.



Yes, let's just overlook the very misleading statement you keep repeating that survival rates for cancer patients receiving chemo are only 2%. Did you even read the study or are you regurgitating the 2% thing that is thrown around a lot in alternative circles,?

"The conclusion was that chemo only improved survival rates by an average of 2%. That doesn't mean that only 2% of cancer patients receiving chemo survive past the 5 year mark. You have wrongly interpreted it that way. What it really means is that if everyone that has ever been told they have cancer, be it Stage 1 prostate cancer or Stage 4 lung cancer, has an average “survival” rate of 60%, then chemo will increase that percentage by 2%. The term “survival” or “cure” refers to the 5 year mark in the cancer world. Now, if you have a 60% chance of making it to 5 years, then this study proved that chemotherapy will increase your chance by 2%. So, after chemo, you will have a 62% chance of survival. It's different from the idea that only 2% of chemo patients “make it”, but it isn't exactly a glowing report either. And it depends entirely on the type of cancer. According to other studies, cancer patients with high grade astrocytomas have a 3% survival rate. According to the Australia study, brain cancer patients who receive chemotherapy increase their survival rate by 3.7%. Now you might say that doubles their chances, and you would be right. Having a 6.7% chance of living for 5 more years does sound better than a 3% chance. But of course you have to consider the side effects of chemo and the quality of life you could expect afterwards. The quality of life issue is a major deciding factor for Why patients are so strongly against trying any sort of chemotherapy. For others, extending the time they have with their families may be the most important factor and therefore choosing to try chemo makes sense."

Of course, this relates very little to the survival rates for BCC, which are close to 100% with early diagnosis and modern treatment options which rarely include chemo.
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Horrux

Canada
16 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2013 :  02:04:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have BCC on my chest. I am male. I went to the dermatologist, who "suggested" (meaning decided on) surgery. I accepted, thinking "Iow hard could it be? It's on my chest, there's tons of skin around it, she'll just remove an entire skin patch with a large, say 1 inch wide, safety zone around it, and then zip it up with stitches", because, well, that's the sensible approach. But no, no, no. She had to just scratch at it, removing it very incompletely.

It is a known fact that cancers grow faster once they've been cut and not completely excised. Well guess what. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

I've been using the Black Salve successfully on my lesions, which are now much larger than just before the dermatologist's surgery, but I am getting rid of it, quite unlike conventional medicine did.

After seeing Hoxsey's photos and according to my own experience, ONLY diseased tissue is affected by Black Salve, which means it creates the MINIMUM scarring you can possibly have. Surgical tools will NEVER, EVER achieve such precision.

Here's my video series, currently running 12 videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLd5ZAHbQyq3OyZY7Jt-OAQmjTiSHGjyJi

This stuff is the real deal and you so-called "quack busters" can go back to living under a rock, where you belong.

Edited by - Horrux on 07/31/2013 02:05:12
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Chill

17 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2013 :  03:11:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okay Horrux here's an experiment for you: apply the black salve to a healthy area of your skin and document the process on youtube. According to you your skin should remain unaffected besides a slight reddening? Please clarify exactly what you expect.

I'd expect it to eat into the skin and cause scabbing and scarring in the exact same way as when applied to a BCC.

Are you willing to give this a go my friend?
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Bwakul

Australia
21 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2013 :  05:56:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Quite easy to fake that experiment with some drawing cream or vegemite.
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Bwakul

Australia
21 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2013 :  06:06:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Besides, it's possible the black salve has the worst impact when it is applied to an area where the skin is already damaged or broken (ie. when you have a skin cancer), hence why some have suggested in here that you puncture or create an opening on the skin. Could also be that it is much worse on the face because the skin on the face is very sensitive.

Who knows though, it really needs to be properly clinically investigated before I would go near the stuff. Why in the hell would you take the risk? I think that's the real point.

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Chill

17 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2013 :  07:23:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, it seems it would have to be applied to broken skin to recreate similar conditions. That's not a test I expect him to make.
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Horrux

Canada
16 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2013 :  08:57:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chill

Okay Horrux here's an experiment for you: apply the black salve to a healthy area of your skin and document the process on youtube. According to you your skin should remain unaffected besides a slight reddening? Please clarify exactly what you expect.

I'd expect it to eat into the skin and cause scabbing and scarring in the exact same way as when applied to a BCC.

Are you willing to give this a go my friend?



Oh, I have done this experiment. I have applied black salve generously around areas that were affected by skin cancer, and there was no effect whatsoever. I'll do the video if you want me to, but it will not show anything at all.

I suggest something else: you buy the black salve, and you spread it on your skin. If you feel it eating into your skin, take it off. If you feel nothing and it does nothing, now you know.

In the end, we, the users of this product, know that it works exactly as advertized. You just don't want to believe that Big Pharma is that corrupt, that such easy, natural, inexpensive cures for cancer exist when cancer is a $500,000,000,000 a year industry. Yes, that is 500 Billion dollars. Hey, if you yourself had "only" a few billion in the balance, would YOU feel like stifling these "dangerous" ideas of easy cures? Most people would. And that's what's happening. The billions talk, and Big Pharma is able to make BETTER youtube videos than most users, "debunking quackery". Of course! There are 500 billion dollars annually to protect... Do the math.
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shazbot

4 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2013 :  10:52:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Lookout the scholar djt10 has been doing research. Well djt10 I read every single article you posted. I would be willing to bet you did not. Here is one pertinent quote from Rethinking the War on Cancer.

"The need for such a major shift in attitude and emphasis already seems to be better understood by the public than by
the “cancer establishment.” But the public needs substantial information and guidance if it is to avoid both the grave
perils of faddism and a loss of faith in the well-established benefits of orthodox medical treatment at its best. [It is
important to note that my comments about lack of progress are in no way an argument against the earliest possible
diagnosis and the best possible treatment of cancer. Modern medicine already has much to offer to virtually every
cancer patient, for palliation if not always for cure; the problem is the lack of any substantial recent improvement in
treating the most common forms of cancer. There is no comfort here for the “medical counterculture".

All of the articles you have referenced generally say the same thing. Cancer is a devastating disease in whichever way it presents itself. Despite the billions of dollars spent on research into new medicines/treatments we are still left with limited success in the prognosis. The ability to treat some forms of cancer(Hodgkin's Lymphoma, Leukemia, Prostate and breast cancer) has made significant advances while others(lung, liver, bone and brain) can only be managed with extreme intervention and are almost always fatal. No sane person would deny that this is very disheartening news. Nobody with a working brain would be surprised to read this information. It is common knowledge to the well informed. As I said cancer is a devastating and complex disease. Cancer has been with humans since we began walking this earth. http://www.archaiologia.gr/en/blog/2013/06/07/the-oldest-tumour-found-in-the-human-fossil-record. It has been just over four decades since we embarked on a journey to eradicate this scourge. We are using the best tools available to us. Tools we have gained by the application of modern scientific principles. Once again you have made no real point. All that you have shown is your ability to copy and paste.

One fact still remains. A hapless, down and out, uninformed dope named hoxsey came here. She had a small red sore on her nose. For arguments sake lets just say it was most certainly basal cell carcinoma. She was probably led here by the "teachings" of another alternative medicine practitioner. One maybe not so illuminated as you, with the grand knowledge of the restorative powers of the sun, and the earths magnetic fields. This forum inserts into her decidedly empty mind the idea of black salve. Hoxsey purchases this magical elixir and applies it to her face. Her entire nose is burned from her face. Her forehead left with a gigantic puss oozing wound and eventual scar. Thinking she misheard your scholarly directions on the application of the salve she returns mid corrosion only to be told to apply more. To fill gel capsules and ingest the very compound that is currently removing the flesh from her face. Had hoxsey never heard of black salve. Had she never unwittingly stumbled upon this forum. Had she not received advice from the exalted djt10 and bonder. Had she gone to a real doctor. A trained professional. She would have been treated successfully. She would still have a nose. There is absolutely no arguing that. Basal cell carcinoma when caught early, which it was, as evidenced by the picture is curable. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000824.htm

To you julypanda. No I have never tried black salve. I would never apply a highly corrosive compound to my skin. The argument that black salve or zinc chloride only targets cancer cells and not healthy tissue is laughable. This is clearly evidenced by hoxsey and her disappearing nose trick. Lets do a little chemistry.

Zinc chlorides, of which nine crystalline forms are known, are colorless or white, and are highly soluble in water. No mineral with this chemical composition is known aside from a very rare mineral, simonkolleite. So much for the "natural" cure. ZnCl2 itself is hygroscopic and even deliquescent. Samples should therefore be protected from sources of moisture, including the water vapor present in ambient air. Aqueous(with water) solutions of ZnCl2 are acidic. The formation of highly reactive anhydrous HCl gas is formed when zinc chloride hydrates are heated. Now I am not a chemist but here goes. ZnCl2 reacts with water. Guess what there is a lot of in living tissue. The ZnCl2 and the water in your cells produce an exothermic reaction(releases heat). This reaction results in lots of heat and HCl. HCl is the gaseous form of hydrochloric acid. When the now produced HCl reacts with the water present in your tissues hydrochloric acid is formed. So...you rub the ZnCl2 salve on your skin. It reacts. Heat and hydrochloric acid are formed and surrounding tissue is dissolved by said acid. Oh, and it gets hot, and painful, and your nose goes away.

You know julypanda you respond to my posts as if I am some kind of arrogant jerk. I'm harsh and inconsiderate. I would say to you, take a good look in the mirror. I would say you are the inconsiderate jerk. You are the one who encourages stupidity. Not harmless innocent stupidity. Stupidity that results in the irreparable harm and disfiguration of people. You encourage terrible behavior and "truth bump" people like djt10. The things you and your brethren espouse on this board are absolute nonsense. I know that what I am writing on this board is a waste of time. I realize people like you and djt10 are so entrenched and insane no form of logic or reasoning could possibly succeed in change. But I do know this. When you and djt10 get into bed to night and rest your head on your pillows one thought will continue to run through your mind. And that thought is this. "Am I crazy...? Is Shazbot right? The answer to both is yes.
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Bwakul

Australia
21 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2013 :  11:35:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Horux.

I managed a. Medical research lab for many years. Like many thousands of labs around the world, we were located in an academic facility. Our funding came from grants and charitable donations. Neither the lead scientist nor anyone else in the lab was motivated by money. Not that they weren't personally (most people are), but the culture often just does not exist to enable researchers in this setting to profit from their work. Success is generally measured by positive results, publications and progression to clinical treatments. Protection of IP was actually quite poorly managed. Even if you wanted to stretch your conspiracy theories further and say big pharma buys up any promising IP developed in academia and buries it, in practise this would be difficult to hide. There would usually be early publications of ex vivo and animal studies which would be in the public sphere, and many academic settings just don't handle commercialisation well. Hence, to the benefit of the community, research in areas of basic science and where there is little commercialisation potential is still supported.
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djt10

USA
48 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2013 :  13:21:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From Newsweek magazine, "We Fought Cancer ...And Cancer Won" http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2008/09/05/we-fought-cancer-and-cancer-won.html

http://truthquest2.com/cancersalves.htm Bloodroot (Sanguinaria) specific to abnormal cells

Zinc chloride is not corrosive to organic materials other than silk and cellulose (plant cells) but it does break down fungi cell walls and similar cancer cell walls contain chitan which is closely related to cellulose. The claim that black salve "eats away" healthy tissue has no scientific basis, but of course that doesn't stop radical medical fanatics from screeching their nonsensical propaganda. Their attitude seems to be, "Don't confuse me with FACTS. I know what I know."

(Book) The War on Cancer: An Anatomy of Failure, A Blueprint for the Future
http://www.amazon.com/The-War-Cancer-Anatomy-Blueprint/dp/1402086202 (Looks like a well-researched book--I wish I could afford it)
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Chill

17 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2013 :  14:37:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Horrux, I've looked into it, Zinc Chloride does permeate cancer tissue better than healthy tissue. But only slightly - perhaps because of different densities? The reason it doesn't appear to effect healthy tissue as readily is because it cannot permeate the top layer of skin to the underlying tissue. Its entry point to the underlying tissue is through the cancerous tissue. This is the effective use of this product, which works in a brutish way by burning through the cancer into the skin.

In Hoxey's case (and many others) the skin has some kind of reaction, the Zinc Chloride permeates the top layer of skin and corrodes the underlying tissue. But I'm no scientist, so I'm not sure about the chemical actions here. All I know is it's scientifically impossible for zinc chloride not to corrode healthy tissue.

If you were to apply it over an open wound (no cancer), the entry point to the underlying tissue would be through the wound. As I mentioned, I don't expect you to perform this test.

I believe the medical industry is filled with corruption and profit chasing psychopaths, as is the case in most industries. In a better world businesses would be held to a size limit by a sober government, and the various companies would compete through ethical standards judged by a satisfied public. But the world is as it is.

I have no idea why you would presume to know how I feel or think about these matters based on such scant information, but you seem to be okay with that method.

None of you have been willing to admit that perhaps, just maybe, you did the wrong thing by not encouraging this woman to seek a doctors opinion. It appears you have a totally nasty opinion of doctors, believing every one to be a crap person? Is every single person selling natural medicine constantly blocking the sunlight beaming out their ass? No. That industry is packed with the same proportion of money hungry psychopaths.

Edited by - Chill on 07/31/2013 15:05:32
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Bwakul

Australia
21 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2013 :  14:54:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by djt10

From Newsweek magazine, "We Fought Cancer ...And Cancer Won" http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2008/09/05/we-fought-cancer-and-cancer-won.html

http://truthquest2.com/cancersalves.htm Bloodroot (Sanguinaria) specific to abnormal cells

Zinc chloride is not corrosive to organic materials other than silk and cellulose (plant cells) but it does break down fungi cell walls and similar cancer cell walls contain chitan which is closely related to cellulose. The claim that black salve "eats away" healthy tissue has no scientific basis, but of course that doesn't stop radical medical fanatics from screeching their nonsensical propaganda. Their attitude seems to be, "Don't confuse me with FACTS. I know what I know."

(Book) The War on Cancer: An Anatomy of Failure, A Blueprint for the Future
http://www.amazon.com/The-War-Cancer-Anatomy-Blueprint/dp/1402086202 (Looks like a well-researched book--I wish I could afford it)



Oh this response is priceless.

Nice one. I'm going to create my own website and then quote myself as a supporting source for all my own opinions. Lol. So what exactly are your medical/scientific credentials ?

I love the story from Dr Weil, who tries it on his dog (once) and then decides this is ample animal testing to show safety and efficacy before he moves directly onto human guinea pigs.
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hmatt843

5 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2013 :  08:40:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Horrux,

I understand you are likely trying to save money and that you are trying to keep high hopes, but I would encourage you to please reconsider your route of treatment and seek truly professional care. Your health should be of utmost concern and is not something to be toyed or experimented with. Please consider my words more seriously than you may be initially inclined to.
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Horrux

Canada
16 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2013 :  09:55:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bwakul

Horux.

I managed a. Medical research lab for many years. Like many thousands of labs around the world, we were located in an academic facility. Our funding came from grants and charitable donations. Neither the lead scientist nor anyone else in the lab was motivated by money. Not that they weren't personally (most people are), but the culture often just does not exist to enable researchers in this setting to profit from their work. Success is generally measured by positive results, publications and progression to clinical treatments. Protection of IP was actually quite poorly managed. Even if you wanted to stretch your conspiracy theories further and say big pharma buys up any promising IP developed in academia and buries it, in practise this would be difficult to hide. There would usually be early publications of ex vivo and animal studies which would be in the public sphere, and many academic settings just don't handle commercialisation well. Hence, to the benefit of the community, research in areas of basic science and where there is little commercialisation potential is still supported.



In any so-called "scientific" endeavor, there is always the looming specter of heresy. You will say, ah, but heresy is about religions, not about science, which is about objective observation of facts. Well, today "science" has become a religion, and whenever a "scientist" does not toe the line of what is generally accepted as "proper science" gets instantly ostracized.

You don't believe me? Go ahead, do some actual research on Black Salve, and see what the response is. And if the response isn't completely negative about your STUDYING it, just watch the so-called "scientific" community's reaction when you publish your results that indeed, Black Salve, with is myriad active ingredients, does induce the immune system to fight and destroy the cancer cells. But before that, just make sure your affairs are in order and that your insurance policy is very well thought out. You know, the mechanism by which black salve does this on skin cancer could easily be transposed on other types of tumors.

My credentials are that I am both a respected economist and a biologist. And I can tell you that the entire world would go into a recession just from acknowledgement by Big Pharma that something can indeed cure cancer. They will never do that. But I do encourage you to experiment with it. My making videos for you will never be enough. Videos can be doctored. In the end if you want to challenge your "skepticism", the only thing for you to do is to test it on yourself, and then try to find someone who has skin cancer who is willing to give it a shot.
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Horrux

Canada
16 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2013 :  09:58:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bwakul

quote:
Originally posted by djt10

From Newsweek magazine, "We Fought Cancer ...And Cancer Won" http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2008/09/05/we-fought-cancer-and-cancer-won.html

http://truthquest2.com/cancersalves.htm Bloodroot (Sanguinaria) specific to abnormal cells

Zinc chloride is not corrosive to organic materials other than silk and cellulose (plant cells) but it does break down fungi cell walls and similar cancer cell walls contain chitan which is closely related to cellulose. The claim that black salve "eats away" healthy tissue has no scientific basis, but of course that doesn't stop radical medical fanatics from screeching their nonsensical propaganda. Their attitude seems to be, "Don't confuse me with FACTS. I know what I know."

(Book) The War on Cancer: An Anatomy of Failure, A Blueprint for the Future
http://www.amazon.com/The-War-Cancer-Anatomy-Blueprint/dp/1402086202 (Looks like a well-researched book--I wish I could afford it)



Oh this response is priceless.

Nice one. I'm going to create my own website and then quote myself as a supporting source for all my own opinions. Lol. So what exactly are your medical/scientific credentials ?

I love the story from Dr Weil, who tries it on his dog (once) and then decides this is ample animal testing to show safety and efficacy before he moves directly onto human guinea pigs.



You want the big journals and Big Pharma to make a site proclaiming that their trillions in cancer research are all for nothing and that cheap, readily available natural products cure cancer? You want them to admit that their entire "mutated cells" thing is utter BS, and that it was a fungal invasion of said cells instead?

Really?

They will *NEVER*.
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Horrux

Canada
16 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2013 :  10:04:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chill

Yes, it seems it would have to be applied to broken skin to recreate similar conditions. That's not a test I expect him to make.


My black salve contains DMSO. You are right, if you don't understand the impact this has, you are no scientist, not even a Sunday one. DMSO (Dimethylsulfoxide) is a simple solvent that has the fascinating ability to transport pretty much anything through the skin. In other words, it doesn't matter what state your skin is in. Also, Zinc Chloride is a simple Zinc salt. Just like table salt, or sea salt, it is an EXTREMELY stable molecule, one that cannot enter into a chemical reaction with anything that makes up living tissue.
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anivoc

645 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  01:41:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Chil, Bwakul, shazbot, crazyashello, hmatt843 all brand new users and all with a penchant against the use of bloodroot paste...coincidence? I think not.

This site is to share information and personal experiences...Dan makes ZERO money from this site and has no products to sell..

Some products come here and try and hype their goods...It is not allowed.. This is a place for people to come and share their experiences, success's, failures and get feedback on thoughts of how to proceed. The mantra do your own due diligence is critical..

The five entities mentioned above have come here with negative demeaning insults...old horror story post from quackwatch..etc.

Yes this is serious stuff...Too many REAL people have found alternative approaches that helped them in their battle against skin cancer here...Some of us are still searching...

You genius's should just start your own Thread where you can get together and giggle about all of the silly fools coming here with skin cancer trying to find a better way to deal with them...than the Gold Standard of the medical world...MOHS and the knife..

BTW do some research and you'll find good old doctor Mohs prior to doing the freezing microscope thing used bloodroot paste himself to identify the lesion area that needed to be removed...he'd apply 24 hours prior to surgery and then cut away the white areas that appeared the next day....

Or give Dr. Larson in Colorado a call..OK he's a horse Veterinarian he uses Bloodroot paste on horse sarcomas all the time...He must be Crazy too...
I've spoken to him and had him explain how bloodroot functions...but then again we're not horses are we...

This recent forum assault is more than a little bit weird... Not sure what the agenda is but there is a definitive and multi tiered pattern of attack going on here that I've never seen the likes of in the last 10 years of coming here..

Show your colors...



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Chill

17 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  02:32:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
we came here because this thread was linked to from Reddit. Are you claiming we're shills? If that's the case then there's no hope for a normal discussion between human beings. Your mind is shut.

Horrux, Zinc Chloride is NOT safe to handle. If you'd like to look up the fact sheets on the chemical you'll clearly see that's it's corrosive. You are spreading harmful information.

http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/2030.pdf

Edited by - Chill on 08/02/2013 02:48:40
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Chill

17 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  02:45:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To be clear, this is the course this thread took: You helped Hoxsey burn her nose off, this outrageous behaviour was posted to Reddit.com as an example of the failings of a certain way of thinking, we came here from Reddit to try and spread better information. Some couldn't contain their outrage.

You can't even entertain that this might be possible. Instead, you have vague fearful paranoia that we're from the medical industry trying to protect profits. Can you put your pride aside and just maybe consider that you did something terribly wrong here? That may be too hard to do it seems.

I was trying to get a conversation going, but instead you label me a monster who only wants to reap profits from sick people. Great.

I sincerely hope no one else gets disfigured by your terrible advice, and I sincerely hope no one decides to chuck Zinc Chloride on their food seeing as it's so safe according to Horrux. Guys, please, take a step back and look at it calmly.
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julypanda

Australia
43 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  03:36:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anivoc - well written !!!

Chill - we might have taken a step back and looked at it calmly as you put it, but some people on the link got very personal with their attacks , and like Anivoc says, they have not seen anything like this in 10 years. Just don't attack people for the choices they made.
I have no medical experience at all, however I have used Black Salve. i thought long and hard about all that has been written of late, and yes it is terrible that Hoxsey lost her nose through the process, and you are all claiming that it was "burnt off", but have a good look at how beautifully it has healed. Yes, I know that there is a lot missing, but there was no infection, and the edges are perfect. If this had been "burnt off" as you call it, then wouldn't she look like a burns victim with terrible scarring and redness. Had the nose grown back fully, you would all be singing its praises. However, on this occasion unfortunately it appears that the cancer was more widespread than first thought,
I had a bcc and i removed it successfully. The minute the black salve was applied you could feel it working. I had a couple of suspect lesions on my skin and applied the black salve and absolutely nothing happened - so it does not affect healthy skin.
As Anivoc says, we are simply people who wrote into a forum who are trying alternative treatments for skin cancer.

Please leave it at this now. Go back to your own forum and say what you like, but don't come on here and knock us for wanting to try alternatives
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Chill

17 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  04:28:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This needs to be said again: We don't mind what you do to yourselves, or the choices you make concerning your own health, everyone has the right to choose. We are against you untrained individuals offering advice that might endanger peoples lives.

The others have left already because they've said what they needed to say amd probably realise you will never admit to making an error for some bizarre but understandably human reason. The children who came here swearing didn't help matters, but people are free to say what they want to say and I'm happy that's the case. That's why I like Reddit - diversity of opinion. Just don't lump me in with them, please.

You continue to make assumptions as to how I think about matters, "had the nose grown back fully, you would be singing its praises" - a nose just doesn't grow back, Julypanda. How does a nose grow back?

How can you know for sure, really ask yourself this, how can you know for sure that it simply ate the cancer away and not normal healthy tissue? How can you know this for sure? This is a very, very important question you need to find the answer to. Because you're spreading potentially hazardous information and your pride is getting in the way of admitting it. You don't know for sure.

On that basis alone, uncertainty, you have to see that you cannot give information that might hurt people, Julypanda. This is something you don't want to hear but it needs to be said.

I am not an aweful person, a shill writing this stuff to line the pockets of the medical industry executives as some of you think for some terrible reason. I'm a dude, a normal dude, who read a forum about a lady who had a terrible reaction to some stuff that contained hazardous chemicals, made a terrible choice of coming to this forum for advice instead of a doctor, and suffered terrible consequences. I'm not sure about this stuff, I can admit it, I can also admit that I don't know enough to actually offer advice to someone going through a terrible reaction to it. And you can't live your life distrusting every single doctor. Are they all aweful, crap people July?

Don't tell me to go away just because you can't stand to hear this. Am I making no sense here?

Edited by - Chill on 08/02/2013 04:34:59
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Bwakul

Australia
21 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  05:38:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am not a reddit user but believe that Chill has given a very simple explanation for how and why other posters found this forum. Sorry, no conspiracy.

What bought me here was curiosity. A number of friends had mentioned black salve to me and I was having a look into it. I was open minded about it at first but was shocked when I stumbled on this forum. Not regarding whether it works (it possibly does In some cases) but by some of the outlandish claims without the support of evidence based research and what I viewed as dangerous medical advice being given by those less than qualified to do so. Even a MD would see the ethical issue with giving advice on an online forum without knowing a persons medical history. What if she had circulation issues, a compormised immune system or diabetes? Use of black salve without medical oversight by a long term diabetic or some basic knowledge of how to look after such a serious open wound could be disastrous.

What is frustrating is that when doing your own search on the internet, peer reviwed research published in high rated journals (if it ihas been done) is often hidden behind pay walls and subscriptions. Additionally, negative results are often not published. The general public then finds itself lost and buried beneath the mountain of easily accessible but less descipherable information put out by those marketing the product or by patient testimonials. I don't believe either of those two sources of information is sufficient for me to risk my health.

The fact you keep repeating that Moh's surgery evolved from the use of black salve to a more modern technique is telling to me, but for a diffierent reason. From this fact, I personally reach the conclusion that it was replaced with a more efficient technique or one that caused far less damage to healthy tissue. This is just the conclusion I have reached, I do not know if it is fact, but it does show that two people with the same information can reach very different conclusions. Repeating that fact as "evidence" to support your own conclusions is not so convincing for some of us. We are free to reach our own conclusions and mostly free to make decisions about our health but please think about why some of us felt the need to put a warning sign up in here for others who are "researching" the use of black salve.

Edited by - Bwakul on 08/02/2013 05:51:06
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Horrux

Canada
16 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  11:16:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chill

we came here because this thread was linked to from Reddit. Are you claiming we're shills? If that's the case then there's no hope for a normal discussion between human beings. Your mind is shut.

Horrux, Zinc Chloride is NOT safe to handle. If you'd like to look up the fact sheets on the chemical you'll clearly see that's it's corrosive. You are spreading harmful information.

http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/2030.pdf

Wow, you seriously lack any knowledge of chemistry, yet you come here with your accusations. This is amazing.

The fact sheet says it's corrosive, true. If you INHALE it, it can make you COUGH. That's bad, right? It's not melting your lungs or anything, it can make you COUGH. That's why you can breathe it in 1mg/m3 concentration without any ill effect.

Zinc Chloride has about the same corrosiveness as acetic acid, which is vinegar. While I'll not be using ZnCl2 solution on my fries instead of vinegar, it is far from the poison you are making it out to be. Javel is a much more powerful corrosive.

So, yes, pure zinc chloride CAN be harmful to use, just as pure acetic acid can cause burns. But guess what, people use vinegar in a lot of things and they're fine.
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Chill

17 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  12:20:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Horrux, what are your credentials in chemistry?

The fact sheet also advises in the case of skin contact, remove all contact and seek medical advice immediately.
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Chill

17 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  12:37:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We're going along a good fact finding mission here, I like it. Acetic acid: it's a component of vinegar - meaning around 8% of vinegar is made up of Acetic acid - not PURE acetic acid as Horrux implied. What percentage of zinc chloride comprises black salve? What's the safety levels, and how can you guys be sure that the black salve you purchase contains a safe amount?

Now just remember, Horrux first stated Zinc Chloride is safe and inert, just like table salt. We've determined it's highly corrosive to skin contact. PURE zinc chloride.

Black salve contains a percentage of zinc chloride. Who's determining what that safe limit is? If I go and buy a black salve, off of amazon for example, how can I be assured that the amount of zinc chloride it contains is at a safe level?

Edited by - Chill on 08/02/2013 12:43:23
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Horrux

Canada
16 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  12:53:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chill

Horrux, what are your credentials in chemistry?

The fact sheet also advises in the case of skin contact, remove all contact and seek medical advice immediately.


Just some college education. My credentials are of being a biologist and an economist, and thus do not relate directly to chemistry. I also tested 174 on an IQ test, that's a credential too, right?
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Chill

17 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  13:24:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think you can be intelligent and misinformed at the same time. Perhaps a high IQ can sometimes be detrimental to your ability to entertain self-doubt. Especially when you haven't mixed with people of a similar or greater level of intelligence on a regular basis, you perhaps get a detrimental sense of superiority. It's not an easy situation to deal with.

Edited by - Chill on 08/02/2013 13:26:38
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Horrux

Canada
16 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  17:16:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chill

I think you can be intelligent and misinformed at the same time. Perhaps a high IQ can sometimes be detrimental to your ability to entertain self-doubt. Especially when you haven't mixed with people of a similar or greater level of intelligence on a regular basis, you perhaps get a detrimental sense of superiority. It's not an easy situation to deal with.



You are right, it is not. It's like living on a planet of the apes or at least, being perpetually surrounded by morons. But I got over my sense of superiority long ago, for it was a failing. I'm better than that now. :D
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anivoc

645 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  19:02:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bwakul what outlandish claims are you speaking of? Can you cite one?
I am a moderator here and I try to stay up on current post and delete spam and "sneaky advertising" There are several very active members here who are not shy to call BS when they see it..

No one I know has made any outlandish "claims" and as far as advice ..maybe some have...I personally am happy to give my opinion but ALWAYS say do your own due dilligence..I did...

Guaranteed I know a lot more about Bloodroot than any of the new crew of nay sayers that have come recently...A few years before this site came about I talked to dozen of people around the world who had personally used it...100's of hours or reading accounts and research...hunting down real people with real names and phone numbers and had conversations before ever actually trying it on myself...

I have posted very graphic pictures of my experience and my results..I am real..they are real...

To say it is "crazy as Hell" is ignorant...All procedures come with risk and bloodroot paste is a serious route to take...not something to jump into without understanding the possible consequences..

The tone the 5 aforementioned "new comers" has set is far from informed or realistic...definitely in some cases leaning on out right rude and obnoxious.

If you have genuine sincere questions, opinions, personal experience or valid info bring it on...Broad sweeping, narrow minded assumptions, accusations and conclusions bring nothing to benefit the group here.

Edited by - anivoc on 08/02/2013 19:03:35
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Bwakul

Australia
21 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  20:55:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm sorry, but you are still using patient testimonials alone as your evidence. No basic science. No pathology. No double blind clinical studies.

Outlandish claims......well pretty much everything written by djt10. And overall, the idea that the black salve has only destroyed cancer cells. This is "possible", but not one of you have any pathology results to state that as fact. You may have got all the cancer (or not). But You really do not know, as you would with MOHs surgery, whether she had healthy tissue destroyed and possibly could have avoided such extensive and expensive plastic surgery.

You've picked up on one word I used and focused in on that but no one will respond to our main point. Do you think it is responsible to give medical advice to someome online, when you are lacking medical training AND know little about that persons medical history (including pathology and any other diagnostic results). ??
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Bwakul

Australia
21 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  21:02:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As an example, lets look again at the study which looked at survival rates and chemotherapy. The whole 2% thing.

If we relied on patient testimonials there would be 1000's who could claim chemotherapy saved their lives. And maybe it has, or extended their lives substantially. But what that epidemiological study seemed to find was that overall it only improved survival rates by 2 %.

Edited by - Bwakul on 08/02/2013 21:02:50
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anivoc

645 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  21:43:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bwakul

I'm sorry, but you are still using patient testimonials alone as your evidence. No basic science. No pathology. No double blind clinical studies.

Outlandish claims......well pretty much everything written by djt10. And overall, the idea that the black salve has only destroyed cancer cells. This is "possible", but not one of you have any pathology results to state that as fact. You may have got all the cancer (or not). But You really do not know, as you would with MOHs surgery, whether she had healthy tissue destroyed and possibly could have avoided such extensive and expensive plastic surgery.

You've picked up on one word I used and focused in on that but no one will respond to our main point. Do you think it is responsible to give medical advice to someome online, when you are lacking medical training AND know little about that persons medical history (including pathology and any other diagnostic results). ??



OK I'll bite...

Let's start with the most relevant question first...

"Do you think it is responsible to give medical advice to someome online, when you are lacking medical training AND know little about that persons medical history (including pathology and any other diagnostic results). ?

Absolutely not it would be irresponsible... No one is giving "Medical advice" here we are sharing our personal experiences, strength and hope and knowledge therein that we have personally gained from our personal research and experimentation....
No one here is impersonating or alluding to the idea that they are medically trained doctors...People come here for a multitude of reasons but this is an internet forum and like anything on the net you better check your facts multiple places before jumping off the bridge with your internet made wings...

This particular thread started by Hoxsey starts with her already in deep trouble treating herself asking for advice...not medical advice...personal experience advice. From there on people chimed in with how they dealt with bloodroot.

As Dan states in his purpose for this forum "Welcome! Skin cancer now affects millions of people worldwide, many chronically. There are good reasons to believe that skin cancer can be prevented by diet and nutrition, that natural healing is possible, and that the best treatment may be a home remedy! These forums are for people with skin cancer and others that care to share questions, concerns, ideas, and experiences. We want better answers for skin cancer. We want to hear your story."

What he states is all true...Diet and home remedies may help in the eradication of various forms of the many skin cancers...

I don't know how much you know ...but I think you know a lot less than you think you do...

Most of us here are real common folks with real skin cancers ...It sucks and it sucks way worse than someone that hasn't got them can understand.

We're the ones that have spent thousands of dollars on painful and disfiguring Medical treatments only to have the dang things come back in a few years...Mohs surgery..the gold standard of the dermatologist... is far from perfect and though the best way to treat Basal cell it doesn't always get it all..

There is so much the derms still do not know...

I am one of those that have gone traditional route, spent thousands of dollars and now do my best to avoid them because their ways don't work any better than the alternative ways.

Do you know what Picato gel is?

Lo and behold...it is made from Petty spurge discussed here before Picato was approved by the FDA..

THis place is an awesome resource for thousands of people that are going through the torture mill of FDA approved Effudex..

Trust the doctors? seriously... Effudex is torture

Then there's fluorouracil...I remember in the 80's being told by one derm to treat my whole face...only to be told 15 years later by the same derm ..Oh I no longer recommend fluorouracil they think it might actually cause an increase in skin cancers...Wonderful.


Then there's the Pathology you ask about... There have been no double blind studies ..why you ask...well it is an ugly truth...MONEY

It cost a lot..and there is no one that can patent this so why invest in the test?

From http://www.bevanpotter.com/herbalhistory.html on this complicated dilemma...

What studies have been done by modern medicine to demonstrate that these Black Salves are a proven skin cancer treatment system?

"In the orthodox community this question refers to a "longitudinal, peer-reviewed, double-blind study with carefully monitored control groups, using strict statistics measures..." bla, bla, bla, bla. We believe in the time-honored tradition of empiricism. It is the fundamental principle underlying the development of homeopathic, naturopathic, and herbalist formulas, even entire volumes of formularies (pharmacopoeia), not to mention the healing techniques of dozens of other modalities. A formula is proven to be effective and safe, in our minds, when it has been tested upon thousands of individuals over a period in excess of one century (that's 100 years) and has been found to repeatedly, thousands of times over, cure legions of patients with little or no side effects. Such is the history of escharotics, the illustrious herbal tradition from whose roots Cansema has sprung. It is the foundation of our South American medical herb formulas, and virtually all herb-based products.

The pecularities of modern food and drug law, based as they are on 19th century "atomist" theories on pharmacology, have totally turned the free market on its head - and this is something most people either don't know, or don't take the time to figure out.

The simple fact is, escharotic preparations are not sufficiently proprietary for anyone to get a useful patent on them. No drug company on earth is interested in a compound if they can't get an enforceable patent on it. And why? Because no drug company on earth ---- no, make that no intelligent human being on earth -- would ever invest the $100 million plus it takes to get "drug approval" in the U.S. and other major Western countries without the reasonable assurance a patent provides THAT THEIR INVESTMENT WOULD BE PROTECTED FROM THE ENCROACHMENT OF COMPETITORS!

The fact is, medicine today -- whether you live in Perth, Edinburgh, Nassau, or Los Angeles, is far more about the dynamics of making money, than it is about doing what is best for the patient. Only when you can clearly view this industry from the inside does the intensity of this concept become so solidified and crystal clear that you would no more question it than you would think to doubt the curvature of the Earth.

Like the Mother Goose story about the Emperor who wore no clothes, the masses of those living in Western society live behind the veneer. Only when one stands back and innocently looks at the structure of modern health care for what it is -- only when one takes the time to follow the money trail, can you understand why the very best products on the market have no chance of becoming mainstream if the most powerful interests in health care cannot figure out a way of cornering the market. It can be a "cornering" of short duration (a patent in the U.S., for instance, lasts 17 years), but it must be a turf that can be legally protected, with artificially high margins, for at pre-calculated period of high, sustained profitabilit." Source: Alpha Omega Labs









Edited by - anivoc on 08/02/2013 21:50:42
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anivoc

645 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  21:55:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It was a DOCTOR that developed Black Salve.....

Skin Cancer - Black Salve
Around the mid-nineteenth century, Native American herbs became very popular in Europe and a Dr. J.W. Fell, working at Middlesex Hospital in London developed a paste made of bloodroot, zinc chloride, flour, and water. This was directly applied as a paste to a malignant growth and generally destroyed the tumor within two to four weeks.

Bloodroot

Bloodroot (Sanguinarea canadensis) is one of the most beautiful eastern North American woodland herbs and was commonly used to treat cancer by the Native Americans. Since that time it has been identified as a primary ingredient in most escharotic salves and pastes, as these are called, used for the treatment of cancer. The alkaloid, sanguinarine has been indeed found to possess powerful anti-cancer properties.

The Eclectics medical doctors of the 19th century, especially Dr. Eli Jones, specialized in the treatment of cancer emphasizing internal treatment and lifestyle changes but evidently used escharotic Black salves and ointments with success. The late Dr. Raymond Christopher created a Black Ointment drawing salve that contained potent anti-cancer herbs such as poke root and black walnut bark. Many consider this to be only for drawing out slivers and such embedded in the flesh, but in fact, the salve is also used for drawing out cancers and tumors. In recent times various formulas for the salve has been sold or given away by various clandestine individuals who are mostly motivated by the desire to help provide patients with a less invasive and harmful method to remove cancers from various parts of the body.

One of the most startling facts is that the use of escharotics has been and continues to be an accepted and recognized medical procedure. A medical text entitled Chemosurgery: Microscopically controlled Surgery for Skin Cancer was written by Dr. Frederic E. Mohs, B.Sc., M.D. and last published by Charles Thomas in 1978. It uses the same basic escharotic paste used by Eli Jones, Hoxsey, and others for application for topical application for the removal of various cancers, molls, warts and other growths and excrescences. Dr. Mohs was clinical Professor of Surgery at the University of Wisconsin Medical School

However, of the modern researchers, the two most respected and well-known authorities in the use of this approach were Dr. J. Weldon Fell and Frederic E. Mohs, MD, both of the United States.

Fell was a faculty member of New York University and later was one of the founders of the New York Academy of Medicine. In the early 1850s, he moved to London and built up a very successful cancer treatment practice based on escharotic therapy using bloodroot (Sanguinaria canadensis) as the herbal base. He published his results

Frederic Mohs
extensively. We know today that the alkaloids in bloodroot do indeed have a strong anti-tumor effect.

Frederic Mohs called his approach chemosurgery and used a fixative paste. His was more an integrative approach that combined the use of the escharotic paste with surgical tumor removal and analysis, rather than allowing for the sloughing off of the eschar. His contribution is immense as he put the procedure on a very sound, scientific footing, with a tremendous amount of research that spanned decades. The soundness of his approach was underscored in a 1990 report that stated he had a verifiable and documented 99% success rate in his treatment of skin cancers!

As recently as the late 1960's Vipont pharmaceuticals under the name of Vipont Chemical Co. of Fort Collins, Colorado, was formed by a rodeo cowboy named Howard McCrorey and two friends specifically to research and develop the Black salve for FDA approval. At one point they informally sent it off to an investigator of Mayo clinic to be tested for its efficacy in treating cancer. The investigator sent back two letters stating he had not tested anything that even came close to the anti-tumor activity of the Black salve.

In order to keep the company viable they performed various contract work. As a result they brought a toothpaste to market called Viadent which utilized the ingredients of their Black salve to maintain dental hygiene and prevent and cure periodontal disease. It was and still is very effective and the company was eventually bought up by Colgate who is the manufacturer of Viadent.

Besides its topical use, there is a tradition of internal use for cancer and all infectious and inflammatory diseases. Vipont conducted an LD/50 toxicity study of the salve for internal use. It was reported that the LD/50 was around 700mg per kilogram of body weight. Since the recommended dose for internal use is no greater than 250mg, at this level toxicity is very low. However, it should never be taken on an empty stomach as it can be too irritating. The salve can be taken in a 00-sized gelatin capsule as it is taken each day.

Vipont and company has documented the use of the salve for a wide variety of problems, ranging from the removal of warts, moles and skin cancers to other internal cancers, colds, eye problems (diluted in a saline solution, one part salve to 1000 parts water), staff infections, impotency, skin diseases, gastrointestinal inflammations and other conditions too numerous to list. One representative who reported this story and was on the Board of Directors of Vipont Chemical Company, Clark Bigham stated that "my inclination is to try it for just about any known condition other than stomach ulcers and auto-immune diseases."
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anivoc

645 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  21:58:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow thanks for pushing ...The net has grown and more old data is available CHECK THIS OUT read it and recognise the truth....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/60916

Arch Dermatol. 1976 Feb;112(2):211-5.
Chemosurgery for skin cancer: fixed tissue and fresh tissue techniques.
Mohs FE.
Abstract
Complete microscopical control of the excision of cancer of the skin is achieved by removing tissues layer by layer and examining the undersurface of each layer by means of frozen sections. If the cancer is extensive and complicated or if it is of a type readily spread over an excisional surface, the tissues are fixed in situ with zinc chloride prior to excision (chemosurgery, fixed tissue technique). If the cancer is not too extensive or complicated, the tissues are excised in the fresh, unfixed state (chemosurgery, fresh tissue technique). Both techniques are highly reliable; for example, in two consecutive series of basal cell carcinomas treated chemosurgically, the five-year rate of cure was 99.3% for the 9,351 lesions removed by the fixed tissue technique and 97% for the 127 lesions removed by the fresh tissue technique.

So there is the TRUTH in Black and white...disgusting!!!! 9,351 lesions tested... 99.3% cure rate using The hideous Zinc Chloride "Fixed tissue" and 97% cure rate using the "fresh tissue technique" The frozen slices under microscope.....Hmmmm why in the world would the medical community use the lesser successful method? Money doesn't talk it swears...

Rub a little zinc Chloride on the lesion have the patient come back the next day remove all the white tissue... or bring in a specialist and start slicing and dicing ...for hour$$$$ ...take the sample to the technician...he freezes it..slices it real thin then the derms look at it under a microscope for irregular cells..Oops still some bad cells in the margins we have to take some more skin.... Here we go again...this process can take several hours...I know..I've been there done that...I even convinced the Derm to let me meet the technician and watch him freeze and slice my specimen...quite the handy dandy micro meat slicer... and quite the money making machine..The whole procedure that is..

Lets see rub some paste on the lesion, cover it...24 hours later pull off the bandage ..cut away all tissue that has turned white

Total billable hours maybe 1 hour..and no special "technician with a zippy zoomy machine to pay for..AND 99% cure rate..

The Freeze method at minimum 3 to 4 billable hours plus the tech / lab fees and a 97% cure rate...Makes sense to me. Dollars and Cents! ..THose crazy fools using zinc chloride are out of their minds....or maybe they're not...just saying

Edited by - anivoc on 08/02/2013 23:10:15
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cheryl21

Australia
19 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  22:54:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anivoc, I think your posts are great but, unfortunately the recent visitors to this forum aren't really interested in listening to anything that you have to say. They haven't come here to discuss anything, but rather to lecture. There is nothing positive about their posts at all.

To Chill & co. you are talking to people here who have used black salve, ignore what they say, and yet you think you know all about it.

I have had two BCC's and one SCC cut out of my face by plastic surgeons. I was never game to use black salve from the negative reports of it on the internet but finally decided it was worth trying as an alternative to being cut up once again and used it on an SCC on my arm and BCC on my face. I am over the moon with the results and will NEVER go near a doctor to be carved up and mutilated by them again.

You seem to be unaware that every time a doctor cuts out a skin cancer they are not just cutting out the cancerous cells, but also a massive amount of good skin just to be sure they have got it all. Google it on the internet and have a look at just how much healthy skin they cut out - it will just about make you sick. Black salve does not destroy healthy skin, but only the cancerous tissue.

The results from my use of black salve is that it is far less disfiguring than what is achieved by the expert doctors, mainly because of the reconstruction the plastic surgeon has to do from removing such a massive amount of skin and the consequent distortion to your anatomy, particularly in an area that we really care about - such as the face!

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Bwakul

Australia
21 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  23:09:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I definitely do not know a lot about skin cancer, nor the modern or alternative treatments for skin cancer. I never claimed to. I stated my major issue. However, I understand that there is a fine line between sharing information and personal experience and offering medical advice. I feel that line was crossed at times. I continue to have a pesonal interest in this area though. My brother just had a BCC removed. He is very young and I am concerned for him. Our neighbour just died of melanoma at age 50 and both my sister in law and mother in law have both had extensive treatment for melanoma quite recently. This is something that affects so many people and I find myself paranoid about any changes to my husbands and my own skin.

I actually do apologise if I have been obnoxious. I think you would be surprised if you were aware of my background and personal situation.

Your post made me laugh a little, as I am the less than enthusiastic audience to these arguments (lectures) pretty much daily from my husband. His whole world view is based around a fixed reference point, that "Government Lies". He is a very intelligent and creative person, but we approach things from a very different angle. I am distrustful of government and corporations but strongly support evidence based medicine.. I am hoping to speak with my sister in law about black salve. She is a naturopath, with an undergrad in science, a doctorate in herbal medicine has lectured both natural medicine snd medical students at a a university. Her thesis was on the use of herbal medicine concurrently with conventional medical practise and she has spent years involved with research into herbal medicine, I think many of you here would find her input of interest ?

After hearing what you have been through, I can definitely understand why my posts have offended you. I have been through similar experiences my entire life with the medical establishment. I have had serious and chronic health problems since I was a child. Incidently, my experience with alternative therapies has also been less than satisfactory, I do support and often encourage people to be their own best advocate when it comes to their health.

I was also the manager of a research lab where our Professor was seen as a radical by the rest of the medical establishment. I disagree with many of the methods and conclusions of my husband and my boss, but I also have a lot of respect for them. I think we need people like them. They are usually extremely creative, and push the boundaries, and this is when we make huge leaps in science. Visionaries are often not so great with the details, and I think great things are possible if these rare people are supported by a team of more detail oriented people. Don't even get me started on the process of clinical trials and dealing with the federal regulatory agency. Or the difficulties of funding and commercialisation. This is what I dealt with daily.

So, no. I do not see everything in black and white. Maybe you could also refrain from the personal attacks. You are just as guilty of this as the "nay-Sayers".


EDIT...

You've added some posts while I was writing this. I've only quickly read through it but I have some questions. I already knew black salve had been used historically, but it would be great if you could find some more research feedback from people like Moh's beyond the 70s. Is he still alive? Why did the chemosurgery progress to current methods? Was it because patients had better cosmetic outcomes and there was more assurances that the cancer was removed? I don't know, I am just asking the question.

Edited by - Bwakul on 08/02/2013 23:26:49
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anivoc

645 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  23:17:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No personal attack just pointing out the obvious over 10 years posting here and suddenly 5 people show up blatantly bashing bloodroot all within a few weeks of each other..coincidence...maybe...I just don't know...it was weird at best...Sorry if I offended you...but the comments coming from the "Nay sayers" got several of us who have been there done that a little upset......the only good that came from it was forcing me to take a fresh look for hard evidence..which I stumbled upon today...you like black and white proof...I provided it here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/60916

Slam dunk Zinc Chloride has been tested and proven on over 9000 lesions 99% cure rate...hmmmm
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Bwakul

Australia
21 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  23:21:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
See my edit in my last post. Is there anything more current than 40 years ago? And aren't those statistics the same or better for surgery? Possibly with better cosmetic results? Happy to be informed and change my mind on this.

I still don't see the slam dunk on the question of whether it destroys healthy tissue? Which has been my argument all along. I have never argued it doesn't kill cancer tissue.

And I'm sorry, but you did make personal attacks. Equal to or worse than anything I wrote.

Edited by - Bwakul on 08/02/2013 23:38:04
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Bwakul

Australia
21 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  23:45:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cheryl21


You seem to be unaware that every time a doctor cuts out a skin cancer they are not just cutting out the cancerous cells, but also a massive amount of good skin just to be sure they have got it all. Google it on the internet and have a look at just how much healthy skin they cut out - it will just about make you sick. Black salve does not destroy healthy skin, but only the cancerous tissue.




Most people are aware that surgeons use margins of healthy tissue.

Where is the evidence that black salve does not affect healthy tissue. I think this is the main point of contention.

Edited by - Bwakul on 08/02/2013 23:46:22
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Bwakul

Australia
21 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2013 :  00:07:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm going to leave you guys alone now, I've just realised you are all dealing with something horrible and Hoxsey has not asked to be "defended". If you're happy with your choices, and the black salve has offered the right answers for you, the best of luck to you. I hope Myself and my family and friends do not have to suffer any more from this horrible condition and I hope the same for you and yours.

If my sister in law (the Dr. And herbalist) has anything interesting to add, I might post that information if it is useful.

Edited by - Bwakul on 08/03/2013 03:29:38
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anivoc

645 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2013 :  02:53:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Interestingly I decided to see what was being said on reddit.

I searched bloodroot paste and zinc chloride and found NOTHING linking back to this site...

Chill would you mind sharing the link to the post you are speaking of on reddit that links back to this forum?
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Bwakul

Australia
21 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2013 :  03:28:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by muderousegg

http://www.reddit.com/r/MorbidReality/comments/1j3guo/girl_uses_black_salve_on_face_and_the_outcome_is/

you are in this post, you guys are insane. totally insane and delusional and dangerous.



Besides the thread mentioned above, there are at least 2 other threads with much harsher criticism than anyone has posted here,
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Chill

17 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2013 :  03:53:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anivoc, I've definitely been offended by the accusations leveled at me. I would like an honest discussion, but it's difficult when the person you're expressing your opposing view to takes that as a personal attack and gets nasty.

Here's something you're not going to like, so just be prepared for it and please understand that I'm not attacking you personally, I'm simply pointing out an error. I don't have an agenda etc. etc. etc.

You've found Moh's 1976 publication. His process with Zinc Chloride was a little different from the process you guys use:

He injected a controlled amount of zinc chloride as a fixative, CUT AWAY the tissue, examined it under a microscope with a very clever plan of determining how much cancer still needed to be cut away. The process required years of training.

His use of Zinc Chloride has been replaced with freezing the excised skin.

Anivoc, honestly ask yourself if this process is equivalent to the process you guys use at home, and that you're allowed to claim the 99% rate as being yours to claim. Doesn't that seem a little disingenuous?

Here's some historical context for you:

http://books.google.co.za/books?id=u_rYwMlRogQC&pg=PA2&lpg=PA2&dq=mohs+inject+zinc+chloride&source=bl&ots=P2Lc4ue6GT&sig=ZzLx0RehFGR72MS69vtO2QewTX0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=msH8Ua_bO4yEhQfNgIH4DQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=mohs%20inject%20zinc%20chloride&f=false

I'm really sorry your argument doesn't work out, and I hope you don't take it personally. Just try and think of it clearly without letting emotional fervour cloud your judgment.

Please guys, if someone comes here with a post asking if severe facial swelling is normal, just tell them to perhaps go see a doctor?

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anivoc

645 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2013 :  03:55:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Bwakul

So basically a bunch of lay people who don't have skin cancer expounding on their ignorance. Really disturbing...reminds me of 12 year old kids ganging up on the weaker ones....

So this is where this all came from...

Only God knows for sure but based on thousands of videos on youtube of people using bloodroot paste I am going to venture an informed guess that had Hoxsey chosen Mohs surgery they would have had to take every bit as much tissue and maybe more...

We'll never know ...There is a minute amount of "bad press" and thousands of real people with real pictures and videos all over the net indicating there are a whole lot of people that have successfully used blood root paste. Using it is not for the faint of heart...

I have personally applied to a non exposed area of my skin for 24 hours with Zero effect on healthy skin...on a basal cell lesion using the same paste WHAM! in minutes of application it was tearing it up..





Edited by - anivoc on 08/03/2013 03:56:32
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anivoc

645 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2013 :  04:19:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Chill it appears we have gotten off on the wrong foot...Not all of the people that came here recently were as rude as others nevertheless it put several of us on the defense..

The link you posted is great...

The exact page that comes up when you click on the link says mohs applied a zinc chloride "paste" and that it had to be left overnight causing the patients GREAT pain...later when rushing to do a video he did the frozen tissue thing and decided it was better... I doubt Mohs was "only in it for the money"..He was a courageous medical innovator, the likes that could not operate legally in todays litigious world..

All you have to do is search youtube and bloodroot paste and you will find hundreds of testimonials ...a few from sellers but mostly from people like me and the other people here who came to the conclusion Bloodroot paste was a viable consideration in dealing with our skin cancer lesions...If you browse topical info you will see this site is not JUST Bloodroot but hundreds of approaches to deal with skin cancer...Bloodroot paste and Zinc Chloride are just one tool in a huge toolbox of choices and approaches...

The medical world is not a perfect system and the way it has been set up restricts what doctors like Mohs used to do...add to that the fear of lawsuits and you have a tight bottleneck for progress and experimentation.
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Bwakul

Australia
21 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2013 :  04:27:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I only saw the reddit posts because of the link posted on this forum. It appears that a reddit post will end up with the majority leaning one way or another and differing views get voted or shouted down. It also depends on where something is posted, for example whether it is in the alt-med sub-eddit versus a skeptics sub-reddit.

There were a few comments in there from doctors too...this one for example...which was also posted on this forum.

"I had a fairly young patient once who used "Blood Root Salve" for her breast cancer. Continued to grow until it replaced her whole breast. By the time she came to a real doc, it had invaded the ribs into the pleural cavity & all the breast skin was gone. Necrotic tumor was growing out of her armpit like a cauliflower. It bled & oozed & smelled so horrible that the Hospice House had to kick her out. She was so skinny & the tumor on her chest was just huge sucking up all her nutrients & life. She hurt like hell. She didn't tolerate chemo & antiestrogens didn't do much. As a desperate measure we irradiated it which slowed the bleeding & debulked as much as possible surgically without leaving to much of her heart & lungs exposed. Helped the pain a lot & improved the smell enough that her family could visit."

Source: http://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/1j47pd/woman_chooses_altmed_instead_of_outpatient/cbb45p5

He writes 3 long posts (in yellow) in response to a nurses post which is at the top of the linked page and makes some good points.

Edited by - Bwakul on 08/03/2013 04:47:00
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anivoc

645 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2013 :  04:38:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In regards to what we say when someone comes here asking for opinions from others who have EXPERIENCE....why in the world would we not share what we experienced...Do you really think the dermatologist would know how to answer that question better than we could?

Trying to understand your perspective...like we did her a disservice telling her that swelling was normal... it's what happens when you use Blood root paste. She asked, Bonder and I replied

None of us could have known the severity of her situation until she posted pictures later... even then the deed was already done ...getting to a dermatologist at that point would have had no effect on the end result or lessened what was already being eradicated.

As Doctor Larsen explained it to me ...these lesions are undetectable by our immune system...They have a sac or veil around them that hides them...when we apply bloodroot paste it removes the veil and exposes the lesion as an invader..the white blood cells attack and the body expels the invader...

It is not the blood root or zinc chloride that do the killing, it is the white blood cells doing their job... By the time she posted her question their work was done. It was then just a matter of time for the body to eject the dead tissue ala swelling and puss.





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anivoc

645 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2013 :  04:53:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I read the link and it is about a woman who used bloodroot paste for a breast cancer...

I chased another link about the down side of Bloodroot paste and it was about a man with melanoma.. Though there are mentions of people beating Melanoma with it...they are questionable and unproven to my knowledge.



For sure Dan ( owner of topical info) makes it clear that the alternative therapies discussed here are for NON MELANOMA "SKIN CANCERS" if you have Melanoma get yourself to your doctor ASAP...Always get suspicious lesions biopsied to confirm they are not Melanoma...
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Bwakul

Australia
21 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2013 :  05:05:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I did read his disclaimer, I had not noticed it at the bottom of the page. Good to see.

It would be good to see an additional warning there for those with a damaged circulatory system. Being a type 1 diabetic of 30 years. The use of something like black salve would be disastrous for me. I form eschers spontaneously from minor damage to my skin and a wound only a couple mm across cam take 6 months to heal. Too bad for me, as I could completely overlook a possible skin cancer as I have several wounds that won't heal at any one time.

Edited by - Bwakul on 08/03/2013 05:10:42
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djt10

USA
48 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2013 :  13:01:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My black salve formula, and the light salve used with it to draw out toxins and help with the healing process came from a 150-year-old book owned by a chiropractor, so that formula using bloodroot, zinc chloride and flour, was published in the mid-eighteen hundreds, so it obviously wasn't "created" by Dr. Fell. It was published in our county paper in 1981, The Yakima Herald-Republic in a story about a sting operation to "catch" people using it--but the published the full formulas and instructions, so there are people all over this area who have used it including my family since 1986. We do this in private. Most people have been diagnosed with cancer, but don't return to doctors after using it. There is a good deal of information on bloodroot--it's not "caustic or corrosive" to healthy tissue. In fact they've used it in toothpaste. And all anyone has to do is some basic research on zinc chloride to find out it is not corrosive to healthy tissues, the only organic material it breaks down, as I've aleady said, is silk and cellulose, which is closely related to chitin, found in fungal and cancer cell walls, which would explain how it helps to expose cancer cells to the immune system, although there is some research that bloodroot does selectively have an impact on cancer cells. I'm going to post this link again to the medical studies on bloodroot: http://truthquest2.com/cancersalves.htm However, we've used black salve for numerous conditions.
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Disclaimer: The three most common types of skin cancer are basal cell carcinoma, squamous cell carcinoma, and melanoma. While melanoma is the most dangerous type, keep in mind that any cancer and potentially some cancer treatments can cause injury or death. The various views expressed in these public forums should not be considered as medical advice. See your qualified health-care professional for medical attention, advice, diagnosis, and treatments.